Does this represent your side?

[Pete Richert]

Here is a link to a side by side comparrison of Arminianism vs. Calvinism (each of the five points). It appears to be written by a calvinist publication so I suspect the wording may be biased towarded Calvinism. Nevertheless, I was wondering if the Arminianism, (or non-calvinists if you will) would comment on whether this adequetly represents their views. (I'm sure most will disagree that one can lose their salvation, point number 5 on the A side.)

click here

 

[rsr]

I have no side. I am comfortable with paradox.

A God who is immanent, yet transcendent.

Jesus, who is man, but is God.

A faith that honors death but revels in life.

God elects, man chooses.

"I Corinthians 13:12 -- For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known."

[ December 10, 2002, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

[romanbear]

Hi everyone;

1.
I believe the Jews also believed in free will and exercised it often even though the whole people were chosen.I've asked a few Rabbi's and so far they have all said they believe in freewill
#2.
If we have free will we have conditional election.We cannot be saved without repentance.we cannot be saved with out choosing to repent.Even when the Holy Spirit is prompting us.Many times before I was saved I was prompted by the Holy Spirit and resisted.
#3
The Calvinist in the third part of this list remind me so much of Catholicism. Even some Catholic Priest say that Calvinism got it's start in the Catholic Church. Limited Atonement is what Catholics believe in.I don't try to limit God.
#4
If we can't resist the Holy Spirit then why Have a religion in the first place.Why do we need the Bible? why did Christ Have to shed his blood on the cross.Why have Satin,All these exists because we have a choice to make.We can resist the Holy spirit and many do.
#5
Once saved always saved has always been a debatable thing in my life I really don't believe that anyone can loose there salvation. Once saved always saved is an unwinable debate.I don't know as yet,the absolute answer to this one and neither does anyone else.

I believe that we as Christians have to be committed to Christ.We have to give our selves over to Him. It's a commitment in my life that I can walk away from but I wouldn't want to. My commitment has made my life full. When I was with out the Lord I was empty.Having Christ is like being given something that is worth more than anything in life.More than my family, more than wealth, More than my next breath.Nothing compares to it's value.It was a free gift but, there were conditions in order to recieve it.We first had to know about it.Then we had to accept it as fact.Then Christ elected us according to our choices.
I've met some Calvinist who are real Bible Believing Christians and won't they be surprized when they see me in heaven standing right next to them.
Romanbear

Peace

 

[Frogman]

Having Christ is like being given something that is worth more than anything in life.

Exactly.

I've met some Calvinist who are real Bible Believing Christians and won't they be surprized when they see me in heaven standing right next to them.

None I know would be surprised.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

[ December 12, 2002, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[tyndale1946]

Calvinist and Arminians will be standing side by side in heaven... with all of Gods other blood bought grace wrought children... And the only free will that will get them there is the free will of God!

So soon we forget... I come down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him that sent me... Of all the Father has given me I shall lose nothing but raise it up again at the last day!... This represents my side and the side of the Primitive Baptist... God had the free will to save who he wanted and did!... Brother Glen Of The Primitive Baptist Brethren

 

[Rev. G]

1. I believe the Jews also believed in free will and exercised it often even though the whole people were chosen.I've asked a few Rabbi's and so far they have all said they believe in freewill

Rabbis believe in freewill but they don't believe in justification by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone.

#2. If we have free will we have conditional election.We cannot be saved without repentance.we cannot be saved with out choosing to repent.Even when the Holy Spirit is prompting us.Many times before I was saved I was prompted by the Holy Spirit and resisted.

What authentic "Calvinist" ever said we couldn't be saved apart from turning away from our sin and choosing Christ? What authentic "Calvinist" declares that the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted? You are disagreeing with a caricature, not with "Calvinism."

#3 The Calvinist in the third part of this list remind me so much of Catholicism. Even some Catholic Priest say that Calvinism got it's start in the Catholic Church. Limited Atonement is what Catholics believe in.I don't try to limit God.

The Roman Catholic Church was THE Church prior to the Reformation. Whether we want to admit it or not, Baptists are linked to the Roman Catholic Church. We came from the Separatists, who came from the Anglicans, who came from the RCC. Even the Anabaptists were former Roman Catholics.

Roman Catholics do not believe in "Limited Atonement." The official position of the RCC is that of "General / Universal Atonement."

You don't try to limit God, huh? Well, you believe in a limited atonement. You believe that the atonement is limited in power - that it has no ability to change a sinner without the permission of the sinner. "Calvinists" believe the atonement is limited in scope, but not in power. The atonement accomplishes exactly what God intends - it saves sinners by overcoming their sin (Mt. 1:21). You also "limit" God by declaring that human beings have unconditional free will.

#4 If we can't resist the Holy Spirit then why Have a religion in the first place.Why do we need the Bible? why did Christ Have to shed his blood on the cross.Why have Satin,All these exists because we have a choice to make.We can resist the Holy spirit and many do.

First, what does resisting the Holy Spirit have to do with having a religion?
Second, the Holy Spirit can be resisted.

Why do we have the Bible? So that we know about God and ourselves. So we know about sin and salvation. So we know about how to conduct ourselves. Etc., etc., etc.

Why did Christ have to shed His blood at the cross? Actually, He DIDN'T have to. He chose to do so because God loves sinners and wanted to save them.

Why have Satan? So that God might demonstrate His power, His righteousness, His glory, etc., etc., etc.

Let me ask you a question. If God has perfect and absolute foreknowledge, why have any of these things (from your perspective)? If God already knows how everything is going to "work out" then what is the point?

#5 Once saved always saved has always been a debatable thing in my life I really don't believe that anyone can loose there salvation. Once saved always saved is an unwinable debate.I don't know as yet,the absolute answer to this one and neither does anyone else.

Are you sure about that? If salvation is all of grace (which it is), then God preserves His people. He will not let them go. If salvation is tinted with works ("keeping your salvation"), then salvation is not all of grace.

I believe that we as Christians have to be committed to Christ.We have to give our selves over to Him. It's a commitment in my life that I can walk away from but I wouldn't want to. My commitment has made my life full. When I was with out the Lord I was empty.Having Christ is like being given something that is worth more than anything in life.More than my family, more than wealth, More than my next breath.Nothing compares to it's value.It was a free gift but, there were conditions in order to recieve it.We first had to know about it.Then we had to accept it as fact.

Amen!

Then Christ elected us according to our choices.

Upon our good, moral, wise, smart, humble choices? Because of what we did (namely "to choose")? No, He chose us because He loves us.
See John 1:12-13; Romans 9:14-16; Acts 13:48, etc.

I've met some Calvinist who are real Bible Believing Christians and won't they be surprized when they see me in heaven standing right next to them.

Not if what you stated about your commitment to Christ is true. "Calvinists" don't believe that only those who hold to the doctrines of grace in this life are going to Heaven, but we do believe that everyone in Heaven will be a convinced "Calvinist."

 

[BobRyan]

Pete
Nevertheless, I was wondering if the Arminianism, (or non-calvinists if you will) would comment on whether this adequetly represents their views. (I'm sure most will disagree that one can lose their salvation, point number 5 on the A side.)

You are correct Pete - the so-called Arminian side is in fact a trashing of the Arminian view.

I would love to find a single Arminian that would sign on to what was posted there.

It gets back to the idea of integrity and how that is noticably absent in some Christian contexts where an opposing view is "supposed" to be objectively presented and then possibly evaluated.

If it was a conservative vs liberal political board - then you would call that link heavily spin-doctored skewed far to one side as it pretends to objectively present and contrast both.

If one is not comfortable seeing the other side - how can you ever have a compelling objective review of it?

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 18, 2002, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[Sularis]

Well, Im not going to produce a pure Arminianistic viewpoint - But I will try and explain my own viewpoint while modifying that link
There may be errors in there - but it should be pretty accurate

Total Depravity

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness, but is still to some extent aware in a limited sense . God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man’s freedom although it may not look like it. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists of his ability once enabled by the Holy Spirit to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is otherwise enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance, but he does have to believe/repent, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s response to God; it is man’s "part" in salvation; much like the man screaming for help while drowning - that screaming is a part of being rescued.

Unconditional Election

Does not exist - God does elect based on what man in his foolishness has done. It is not based on foreknowledge as in God knows what has happened - and so brands those who will believe as elect - rather as a chessmaster - he will brand a certain piece/person elect on a permanent or temporary basis. The queen sacrifice of His Son - was elected in order to draw out His opponent and put him on the run until the king can run no more, and a pawn makes it to the end and the queen returns to checkmate the opposing king. God knows all possible moves - and as such He knows what general moves will benefit Him - However as life plays out - certain moves are no longer beneficial while others become crucial. God not only makes those moves but He steers the game in such a way that He can dictate which path we go down - even with free will

Limited Atonement
Christ’s redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved, and actually secured the salvation of everyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe. Christ’s redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it. This is much like God has handed out coupons saying one free salvation to holder of coupon. The problem is those coupons have expiry dates. That date being our death. All anyone has to do is go yep that coupon is real - hand it in - and they will be saved. There are naturally a few requests on it much like an amusement park ticket - but the owner of the park is more then willing to overlook a few transgressions - as long as we confess and admit to them - and do our honest best with His help to not break the rules.

Irresistible Grace

The Spirit calls all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully reject the Spirit’s call. The Spirit regenerates the sinner allowing him the ability to believe; faith (which is man’s contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man’s free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ’s saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God’s grace, therefore, is not irressitible; it can be, and regretfully often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Perserverance of the Saints
Never like the word Perserverance
Mainly because everyone fails
lets switch to Preservation of the Saints

All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and sealed by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus are preserved to the end.

 

[BobRyan]

Would your model survive given the premise that God has absolute knowledge of all details in the future? If He absolutely knows everyone's choice and every tiny detail of all future events?

What if the inclusion of "God-attributes" into a model that then tries to understand what God could and could-not do - is problematic when attempted by finite minds?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Sularis]

God's foreknowledge - most often a pitiful attempt by Calvinists and others to limit God even further

There is no one path of history, The only thing we know is the end.

I will try and explain again

If you want to get from Toronto, Ontario, Canada
to Kansas City, Missouri, there is more then one route that can be taken

God knows every sideroad - every turn, every clump of dirt on every possible route. There is no ONE route - there are many routes.

God knows the specifics of each route, and has a plan in place for each route. But pre-destination and election is not only that planning for whatever route we take, but it is God walking beside mankind in the now - in the present - and gently smacking us upside the head - with floods, fires, a solitary snapping turtle in a pond - making sure that we dont go down certain routes - EVEN though God had/has a plan to deal with that route IF we do/did go down it.

Another problem is that we use the terms election and pre-destination interchangeably - they are not identical - One is a subset of the other

pre-destination - is the general overview and is the good works that all Christians are called to do by the leading of God - this covers the route and the steering

Election - is the subset in that the elect are the means whereby the steering from route to route is usually accomplished save when God uses snapping turtles - floods, pillars of fire, etc...

God knows the future sure, He acts upon that knowledge sure, but the entire course of the future is not finished being laid out. God has only set the ending - and is currently guiding mankind into that ending, based on what He allows our choices to be.

 

[Charlie T]

God knows every sideroad - every turn, every clump of dirt on every possible route. There is no ONE route - there are many routes.

God knows the specifics of each route, and has a plan in place for each route. But pre-destination and election is not only that planning for whatever route we take, but it is God walking beside mankind in the now - in the present - and gently smacking us upside the head - with floods, fires, a solitary snapping turtle in a pond - making sure that we dont go down certain routes - EVEN though God had/has a plan to deal with that route IF we do/did go down it.

I disagree. God is SOVEREIGN. The King does not submit to the plans of all of his subjects. If he is walking down the street, his subjects yield to him, not he to their path.

You are saying that God may prod, but never rules. You are in a sense saying that the universe is a democracy and that God is a public servant who works for everyone.

Psalms 33 says this

10The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect.
11The counsel of the LORD stands forever,
The plans of His heart to all generations.
12Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD,
The people He has chosen as His own inheritance.

13The LORD looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men.
14From the place of His dwelling He looks
On all the inhabitants of the earth;
15He fashions their hearts individually;
He considers all their works.

I think that the Bible teaches that God decrees and that all of His decrees come to pass. Not that only the decrees that line up with man's decisions. He is the potter and we are the clay, and clay never tells the potter what to do.

It seems to me that in an effort to exalt man's will, many subvert God's Sovereignty. It seems to me that this is an attempt to overthrow the King in order to have a democratic universe. Thank God that He rules from His righteous, eternal decrees and nothing can prevent their fulfillment.

Not meaning to offend.

Charlie

 

[Jacob]

All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and sealed by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus are preserved to the end.

Good post but could you define your definition of "Chosen by God" and what being "chosen" means in your view.

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

It seems to me that in an effort to exalt man's will, many subvert God's Sovereignty. It seems to me that this is an attempt to overthrow the King in order to have a democratic universe.

I come from a Calvinist background and can't count the number of times I've heard "Non-Calvinists are proud people and want to make themselves more Sovereign than God so they can get some credit for their salvation" However, I'm beginning to learn that it's the exact opposite. Non-Calvinists want to give man genuine free will so that man themselves fully get the blame for not being saved - not in the least bit God.

Jacob

 

[Charlie T]

Jacob,

I am not really attacking the intent of Arminians. But the logical implications does limit God's Sovereignty in order for them to exalt man's choice.

I see only three real alternatives.
1. All men are saved. (Universalism)
2. God actually saves who He calls.
3. God actually saves no one, but merely creates a plan by which some might be saved.

I think that scriptures indicate that God actually saves men. I think that scriptures state that God accomplishes what He desires. Arminians do not.

Further, Arminian theology puts God's plan of salvation at the mercy of Sinners who do not desire God. I find this idea frightful.

Charlie

 

[Jacob]

A friend of mine (Bill) once saved another friend of mine (Fred) from Financial Bankruptcy. He wrote him a large cheque - no pay back required. Fred went to the bank, cashed the cheque and paid all his bills off.

Who saved Fred from Bankruptcy?

1) Bill did because he supplied the money to pay the debts.
2) Fred saved himself because he cashed the cheque.

The answer is obvious.

Jacob

[ December 18, 2002, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Jacob ]

 

[Charlie T]

The answer is obvious.

But the accuracy of the comparison is not so obvious.

Now, if Fred had no desire to pay off his bills and was thrown in debtors prison, but still refused to pay his bills. And if Bob was the soveriegn King of the realm. Then you might have a good comparison.



Blessings to you, Brother,
Charlie

 

[Jacob]

That's only if you accept the 5 pt Calvinist's interpretation of Total Depravity.

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord"

The point of the illustration was only to show that the reception of the gift is a very, very, very, very small contribution - and definately does not "overthrow the King".

Jacob

[ December 18, 2002, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Jacob ]

 

[Pete Richert]

Speaking from a quisi-calvnist position (manly I'm so confused I don't know yet) I can say and I believe Calvinsim teaches that it is NEVER God's fault we go to hell. All of us sin and all of us deserve hell and everybody who is there is there for their own fault absolutly. Just because God might choose to give a pardon to some does not mean the it is not the fualt of others for being there in the first place.

An example that I'm sure you have heard but I must use again.

Ten men go out and kidnap, rape, and kill twenty women each. They all get caught and all get the death penalty. For some unknown reason, the govener pardens one of them. Is it now the governers fault that the others are on dealth row? Is it only fair that we should release them all now?

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Amen, brother. To add even more truth to this scenario, suppose that none of the men wanted a pardon anyway. The natural could care less about his sins. Now, would it be only fair to release all of them? Certainly not!

 

[BobRyan]

Jacob
Who saved Fred from Bankruptcy?

1) Bill did because he supplied the money to pay the debts and CHOSE to give it as a gift.
2) Fred saved himself because he accepted the money and cashed the cheque.

The answer is obvious.

Indeed it is - but Calvinism must make it's entire case in that little bit of realestate where Fred cashes in on what someone else provided.

And as if that little bit is not restricted enough - Calvinism's is further reduced to nill by the fact that BOTH the Arminian and Calvinist positions claim that the divine sovereign act of God in "Convicting the World" John 16 AND then in "Drawing All mankind" John 12:32 is what enables Fred to do even that little that he does.

The case could not be worse for Calvinism as it is forced to appeal to the exact same princicple for Fred's actions as many Armininans also claim - while charging that Arminians don't have a good explanation for how Fred can choose life.

This means that all that is left for Calvinism to make its case on -- is "redefining" "ALL mankind" and "World" from the SAME texts used by BOTH sides to explain Fred's "ability".

(Note that all the "Ability" posts on this thread provided by Calvinist - conveniently ignore this problem).

==============

So what is left to Calvinism as "substance" in it's last stand case arguing against "World " and "All mankind"?

It is that God would be "inneffectual" if He draws All Mankind for the purpose of salvation but then All Mankind does not become saints.

hmmm as in - "inneffectual" if God creates the Angles for the divine purpose of being ministers of light - when in fact 1/3 of them one day - turn to rebellion.

As if God would be "inneffectual" if He creates mankind to "Worship God and Glorify God" only to have 100% of mankind turn to sin and total depravity in the Garden of Eden.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 19, 2002, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]