Andre said:
GE:
Kindly, by reason of its modern day connotation, do not apply the term 'fundamentalist' to me. I abhor it. Rather call me biblicist, bible-puncher, whatever; but not 'fundamentalist'.
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Does this verse prove election?
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GE:
Kindly, by reason of its modern day connotation, do not apply the term 'fundamentalist' to me. I abhor it. Rather call me biblicist, bible-puncher, whatever; but not 'fundamentalist'.
Andre:
"It is only in the sometimes odd and sometime intellectually inbred world of fundamentalist Christianity that such statements are made. ..."
GE:
Kindly do not, by reason of its modern-day connotation, call me 'fundamentalist'. Call me simpleton, bible-puncher, biblicist, whatever, but not 'fundamentalist'. I abhor it.
"It is only in the sometimes odd and sometime intellectually inbred world of fundamentalist Christianity that such statements are made. ..."
GE:
Kindly do not, by reason of its modern-day connotation, call me 'fundamentalist'. Call me simpleton, bible-puncher, biblicist, whatever, but not 'fundamentalist'. I abhor it.
Somewhere along the line there's a big delay!
Sorry for the double-post.
Sorry for the double-post.
We are talking about Proverbs 16:4, are we not?Gerhard Ebersoehn said:GE:
The Word says, "the wicked (men)" -- the damned, their names NOT being written in the Book of Life Jesus Christ, but written, in the books opened in the judgement. They are known by name and person as are the saved. From before the foundation of the world. According to God's will.
Why not accept it? Because you cannot trust God? Then whom would you rather trust?
Here it is again:
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Where in this text is it stated that "the wicked" = "that set of specific individuals whose names are not in the book of life".
If you have further evidence to support this claim, then please provide it. But the Proverbs text by itself certainly does not justify such a position. As a phrase "the wicked" could certainly be read as a class of persons.
We need to open our minds to other possibilities than the one that immediately springs to our minds: it is entirely coherent that God made "the wicked" as a class of persons, without deciding who would be in that class. It is admittedly easier to assume that "the wicked" is a named set of persons.
Andre said:We are talking about Proverbs 16:4, are we not?
Here it is again:
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Where in this text is it stated that "the wicked" = "that set of specific individuals whose names are not in the book of life".
If you have further evidence to support this claim, then please provide it. But the Proverbs text by itself certainly does not justify such a position. As a phrase "the wicked" could certainly be read as a class of persons.
We need to open our minds to other possibilities than the one that immediately springs to our minds: it is entirely coherent that God made "the wicked" as a class of persons, without deciding who would be in that class. It is admittedly easier to assume that "the wicked" is a named set of persons.
GE:
Rv13:8 says their names are not written in the book of life, so their names must be written in another book, the book of death, naturally, speaking hipothetically and figuratively. I believe one's name is written in the Book of Life is that person's salvation is a fact in and through Jesus Christ; he is found "in Him"; Jesus is the Book of Life; the names of the saved are each and everyone, 'written in the Book of Life'.
Now just as "God knows who are His", so does He know each by name who are not, but who, in His own will, are according to Divine Justice and Omnipotence, destined to die for their own sins the everlasting death of damnation.
I certainly agree that specific individuals appear in the book of life and that the names of the rest are effectively written in the "book of death". But this does nothing to support the doctrine of election. I will counterargue that the names in the book of life and the names in the book of death got there based on decisions taken in respect to accepting the gift of salvation, not because of election.Gerhard Ebersoehn said:GE:
Rv13:8 says their names are not written in the book of life, so their names must be written in another book, the book of death, naturally, speaking hipothetically and figuratively. I believe one's name is written in the Book of Life is that person's salvation is a fact in and through Jesus Christ; he is found "in Him"; Jesus is the Book of Life; the names of the saved are each and everyone, 'written in the Book of Life'.
Now just as "God knows who are His", so does He know each by name who are not, but who, in His own will, are according to Divine Justice and Omnipotence, destined to die for their own sins the everlasting death of damnation.
Your argument seems to be circular in that you are assuming the truth of election and then allowing that assumption to inform both your interpretation of Prov 16:4 and Rev 13:8. Both these texts can work perfectly well with the belief that there is no elect.
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:GE:
Rv13:8 says their names are not written in the book of life, so their names must be written in another book, the book of death, naturally, speaking hipothetically and figuratively. I believe one's name is written in the Book of Life is that person's salvation is a fact in and through Jesus Christ; he is found "in Him"; Jesus is the Book of Life; the names of the saved are each and everyone, 'written in the Book of Life'.
Now just as "God knows who are His", so does He know each by name who are not, but who, in His own will, are according to Divine Justice and Omnipotence, destined to die for their own sins the everlasting death of damnation.
I can still definitely see, and agree with, Andre's point that you are incorrectly assuming that this verse in Proverbs has to mean that there are literal names and persons already in that book. I also am cautioned at your argument because of the attitude that seems to insist you've got it all figured out. I'm sure you'll verbally deny that, yet will continue to act like you do.
Andre:
"the names in the book of life and the names in the book of death got there based on decisions taken in respect to accepting the gift of salvation, not because of election."
GE:
(My sight is getting worse, so I must enlarge the print before I can answer.)
But let me first give the Scripture - Rv20:12 - that explains my previous answer made with reference to Rv13:8, more directly,
"I saw the dead ... stand before God; and the books were opened. And ANOTHER book was opened - which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books (of judgment), according to their works."
The books of judgment to me seems clearly, to be the books of the Law. Any who might try to redeem themselves with works of the Law, are judged by it and found too light. The Law identifies these, "to their works".
Rv18: "They that dwell on the earth .... whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world."
By the same principle, the names of both the wicked or lost and the saints or saved, were written in a, book, either in the Book of Life, or, in the 'other' books, BEFORE (or "from"), "the beginning of the world".
This directly is contradicted by your assertion above, "the names in the book of life and the names in the book of death got there based on decisions taken in respect to accepting the gift of salvation, not because of election."
You make the entries after "the beginning of the world", and during the life, of each individual.
"the names in the book of life and the names in the book of death got there based on decisions taken in respect to accepting the gift of salvation, not because of election."
GE:
(My sight is getting worse, so I must enlarge the print before I can answer.)
But let me first give the Scripture - Rv20:12 - that explains my previous answer made with reference to Rv13:8, more directly,
"I saw the dead ... stand before God; and the books were opened. And ANOTHER book was opened - which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books (of judgment), according to their works."
The books of judgment to me seems clearly, to be the books of the Law. Any who might try to redeem themselves with works of the Law, are judged by it and found too light. The Law identifies these, "to their works".
Rv18: "They that dwell on the earth .... whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world."
By the same principle, the names of both the wicked or lost and the saints or saved, were written in a, book, either in the Book of Life, or, in the 'other' books, BEFORE (or "from"), "the beginning of the world".
This directly is contradicted by your assertion above, "the names in the book of life and the names in the book of death got there based on decisions taken in respect to accepting the gift of salvation, not because of election."
You make the entries after "the beginning of the world", and during the life, of each individual.
Andre:
"the names in the book of life and the names in the book of death got there based on decisions taken in respect to accepting the gift of salvation, not because of election."
GE:
No. the names in the book of life 'got there', 'based' upon God's decision taken before anyone accepted or rejected the gift of salvation. in other words: 'because of election'.
"the names in the book of life and the names in the book of death got there based on decisions taken in respect to accepting the gift of salvation, not because of election."
GE:
No. the names in the book of life 'got there', 'based' upon God's decision taken before anyone accepted or rejected the gift of salvation. in other words: 'because of election'.
dan e. said:I can still definitely see, and agree with, Andre's point that you are incorrectly assuming that this verse in Proverbs has to mean that there are literal names and persons already in that book. I also am cautioned at your argument because of the attitude that seems to insist you've got it all figured out. I'm sure you'll verbally deny that, yet will continue to act like you do.
GE:
God, had it all figured out from before the foundation of the world. The Word says the Lamb of God was slain from before the foundation of the world. It was possible only because of God's Election.
dan-e:
".... you are incorrectly assuming that this verse in Proverbs has to mean that there are literal names and persons already in that book. I also am cautioned at your argument because of the attitude that seems to insist you've got it all figured out. I'm sure you'll verbally deny that, yet will continue to act like you do."
GE:
This is what you insist I say. I do not. I haven't assumed or said anything of "literal names" or even of a 'literal book'. I'm no SDA!
After this post of yours, I've explained that I mean Christ, is the 'Book of Life'; and the Law, the 'other', books -- also not meant literally - but as the principle of justification through works.
But I do believe actual individual people or persons, with names 'written in the books' -- from eternity. God knew each by name before they were born; He in fact willed each - saved or lost - be conceived, be born or not, to grow up and get old, or die soon.
".... you are incorrectly assuming that this verse in Proverbs has to mean that there are literal names and persons already in that book. I also am cautioned at your argument because of the attitude that seems to insist you've got it all figured out. I'm sure you'll verbally deny that, yet will continue to act like you do."
GE:
This is what you insist I say. I do not. I haven't assumed or said anything of "literal names" or even of a 'literal book'. I'm no SDA!
After this post of yours, I've explained that I mean Christ, is the 'Book of Life'; and the Law, the 'other', books -- also not meant literally - but as the principle of justification through works.
But I do believe actual individual people or persons, with names 'written in the books' -- from eternity. God knew each by name before they were born; He in fact willed each - saved or lost - be conceived, be born or not, to grow up and get old, or die soon.
dan-e:
".... you are incorrectly assuming that this verse in Proverbs has to mean that there are literal names and persons already in that book. I also am cautioned at your argument because of the attitude that seems to insist you've got it all figured out. I'm sure you'll verbally deny that, yet will continue to act like you do."
GE:
This is what you insist I say. I do not. I haven't assumed or said anything of "literal names" or even of a 'literal book'. I'm no SDA!
After this post of yours, I've explained that I mean Christ, is the 'Book of Life'; and the Law, the 'other', books -- also not meant literally - but as the principle of justification through works.
But I do believe actual individual people or persons, with names 'written in the books' -- from eternity. God knew each by name before they were born; He in fact willed each - saved or lost - be conceived, be born or not, to grow up and get old, or die young.
".... you are incorrectly assuming that this verse in Proverbs has to mean that there are literal names and persons already in that book. I also am cautioned at your argument because of the attitude that seems to insist you've got it all figured out. I'm sure you'll verbally deny that, yet will continue to act like you do."
GE:
This is what you insist I say. I do not. I haven't assumed or said anything of "literal names" or even of a 'literal book'. I'm no SDA!
After this post of yours, I've explained that I mean Christ, is the 'Book of Life'; and the Law, the 'other', books -- also not meant literally - but as the principle of justification through works.
But I do believe actual individual people or persons, with names 'written in the books' -- from eternity. God knew each by name before they were born; He in fact willed each - saved or lost - be conceived, be born or not, to grow up and get old, or die young.
This line is so slow I thought I haven't pressed the button ... sorry, once gain!
Is this the old issue between spupralapsarianism and infralapsarianism? If it had been between electionist and electionist I would have said yes. But since it is between Arminianists and Calvinists, I would say no.
Andre:
"....As a phrase "the wicked" could certainly be read as a class of persons."
GE:
'Class' or no 'class': "the wicked", are those individuals known to God for their wickedness as individually as the 'class' of the 'saved', are for His love for them known by Him individually.
"....As a phrase "the wicked" could certainly be read as a class of persons."
GE:
'Class' or no 'class': "the wicked", are those individuals known to God for their wickedness as individually as the 'class' of the 'saved', are for His love for them known by Him individually.
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:"They that dwell on the earth .... whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world."
By the same principle, the names of both the wicked or lost and the saints or saved, were written in a, book, either in the Book of Life, or, in the 'other' books, BEFORE (or "from"), "the beginning of the world".
This directly is contradicted by your assertion above, "the names in the book of life and the names in the book of death got there based on decisions taken in respect to accepting the gift of salvation, not because of election."
You make the entries after "the beginning of the world", and during the life, of each individual.
I have chosen a size 3 font for the sake of Gerhard who has some difficulty with smaller text.
This text about names being in the book of life from the foundation of the world certainly would seem to close some doors on those of us who are of an Arminian and even open theist bent.
But one can argue that the fact that a person's name is written in the book before the foundation of the world is entirely consistent with the view that God foreknew who would be saved and yet did not elect them to that salvation.
After much initial resistance on my part, I have become entirely convinced that God can foreknow the future without fore-ordaining it (causing it to play out as it will). So I still see no reason why the presence of specific names in the book of life (and by complementarity, in the 'book of death' as well) is any kind of evidence that people were elected to such status.
1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
It seems that only those who God foreknew would believe are granted by the Father to come to Jesus.
The elect = those who are called to Jesus by the Father according to the foreknowledge of God of who would believe.
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
It seems that only those who God foreknew would believe are granted by the Father to come to Jesus.
The elect = those who are called to Jesus by the Father according to the foreknowledge of God of who would believe.
Who's names are blotted out of the book of life, and why? If they are blotted out, why were they in there in the first place?
BTW, the verse says God made the wicked, not that He made them wicked. Some of you people seem to believe in Double Predestination. If this verse means what you think it means, then yes, it proves Double Predestination.
BTW, the verse says God made the wicked, not that He made them wicked. Some of you people seem to believe in Double Predestination. If this verse means what you think it means, then yes, it proves Double Predestination.
Blammo said:Who's names are blotted out of the book of life, and why? If they are blotted out, why were they in there in the first place?
BTW, the verse says God made the wicked, not that He made them wicked. Some of you people seem to believe in Double Predestination. If this verse means what you think it means, then yes, it proves Double Predestination.
GE:
Names 'blotted out ...' This clause in Rv 22:19 is not authentic. See various Translations and many good commentaries.
Residents on this thread may profit greatly from MANY achived ones. The best of the best thinkers have written volumes and volumes on the topic. No one can claim he discovered something better than these mental and spiritual giants have. It beforehand tells he's a bungler.