reformedbeliever
New Member
I was wondering just how much a person's eschatological position affected their soteriology? I am pan millenial.... I believe when Jesus comes back, everything will pan out. :laugh:
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Does your eschatological position determine your soteriology?
- Thread starter reformedbeliever
- Start date
The two are more closely related than many believe.
One example:
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Is this OT passage from Amos fulfilled? It seems that it must be in order for Gentiles to be saved.
Another:
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Has this been fulfilled? According to Charles Ryrie's study Bible it has not. He says we recieve the benefits of this New Covenant but it has yet to be established. That is a position he must hold because he is still waiting on the joining of the House of Israel with the House of Judea. I would like to ask Ryrie what covenant Jesus established.
I think ones eschatology can contradict their soteriology without even knowing.
One example:
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Is this OT passage from Amos fulfilled? It seems that it must be in order for Gentiles to be saved.
Another:
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Has this been fulfilled? According to Charles Ryrie's study Bible it has not. He says we recieve the benefits of this New Covenant but it has yet to be established. That is a position he must hold because he is still waiting on the joining of the House of Israel with the House of Judea. I would like to ask Ryrie what covenant Jesus established.
I think ones eschatology can contradict their soteriology without even knowing.
reformedbeliever
New Member
Grasshopper said:
Or if not contradict it, cause one to change their soteriological belief?
This is one point I was trying to make... at least in my own mind. Thank you sir.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Debating on rapture timing and millennial doesn't affect our salvation. Because many of them who are posttribs or pretribs both believe Christ died for our sins, that is the most important thing for our salvation. I am not pan out on rapture timing, I know the Bible is clear teaching that we must go through much tribulations enter into the kingdom because of Acts 14:22 and many other verses saying so.
But, I realize that, I notice about 95% of pretribs are security salvation, because, they teaching us, we don't have to be worry about coming great tribulation and face Antichrist, because we are already saved by Jesus Christ, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, we are in the 'Church Age'. When the Holy Spirit leaves, the grace gones. So, there will be no longer security salvation or 'grace' during great tribulation period. That is another kinds of salvation plan. That why, I disagree with pretribulationism. The Holy Spirit shall never, never leave us till the end of the age according Matt. 28:20. There is the only one plan of salvation throughout all ages by base upon our faith only, plus nothing. Once Christ comes at the end of age, then, the opporunity of salvation will be finished for the world, time for the judgment to come according to Matt. 25:1-13.
Again, begin debating on end times have do nothing with our salvation, because we all agree that Christ died for our sins, and we all agree that Christ is coming again. That is the basic fundamental beliefs, what we believe the same time.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
But, I realize that, I notice about 95% of pretribs are security salvation, because, they teaching us, we don't have to be worry about coming great tribulation and face Antichrist, because we are already saved by Jesus Christ, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, we are in the 'Church Age'. When the Holy Spirit leaves, the grace gones. So, there will be no longer security salvation or 'grace' during great tribulation period. That is another kinds of salvation plan. That why, I disagree with pretribulationism. The Holy Spirit shall never, never leave us till the end of the age according Matt. 28:20. There is the only one plan of salvation throughout all ages by base upon our faith only, plus nothing. Once Christ comes at the end of age, then, the opporunity of salvation will be finished for the world, time for the judgment to come according to Matt. 25:1-13.
Again, begin debating on end times have do nothing with our salvation, because we all agree that Christ died for our sins, and we all agree that Christ is coming again. That is the basic fundamental beliefs, what we believe the same time.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
reformedbeliever
New Member
DeafPosttrib said:
You might mis-understand me. I'm not talking about someone's salvation, but their soteriology. The mechanics of how they are saved. Eschatology, in my opinion, will definately have an effect on ones soteriology.... or vice versa.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
My eschatology is pre-tribulation rapture; pre-millennial physical
Second Coming and futurist.
My soteriology is OSAS = once saved by Jesus, always saved by Jesus.
It seems that most of the people that I know who
embrace a post-tribulation rapture only eschatology
also embrace a "if you slip up once in the Tribulation
that you will be going thru, you will fry" mentality
which is totally NOT OSAS.
But maybe it is the soteriology dictating the parameters
that one's eschatology can take?
Second Coming and futurist.
My soteriology is OSAS = once saved by Jesus, always saved by Jesus.
It seems that most of the people that I know who
embrace a post-tribulation rapture only eschatology
also embrace a "if you slip up once in the Tribulation
that you will be going thru, you will fry" mentality
which is totally NOT OSAS.
But maybe it is the soteriology dictating the parameters
that one's eschatology can take?
Where there is a "pan" there must be "fire", so you nailed that one.reformedbeliever said:
But I believe in our eschatology, we must have our own Bibliology. We must understand theology proper, along with Christology, and don't forget Pneumatology, for Proper understanding of God.
Lot's of people get into trouble for they don't understand Angelology, Satanology, Demonology, but it seems we all understand Anthropology.
Of course if we understand Hamartiology, and Ecclesiology, I would say "hello fellow pre-tribber".
I believe that Eschatology is connected to -- maybe even the future tense of -- Soteriology. But I don't think ones eschatology dictates his/her eschatology. That's sorta the cart before the horse, no?
BTW, I am Reformed Arminian (I believe in the security of the believer, and the possibility of apostasy), and I am also Dispensational, Pre-millennial, and Pre-Tribulation rapture...
JDale
BTW, I am Reformed Arminian (I believe in the security of the believer, and the possibility of apostasy), and I am also Dispensational, Pre-millennial, and Pre-Tribulation rapture...
JDale
I wouldn't think so, for God says He had "hidden" His overall plan of reconciling the world unto Himself by Grace through faith.Grasshopper said:
Amos is of the "Kingdom" that John the Baptist says was at hand. We today are not in "prophecy". What does Amos say about the rapture, the Body of Christ? Amos says nothing about what he does not know. Would God tell a "secret" in His mysteries before it is time?
Look what Amos says in 9:11, or Malachi 3:1, and others. This is Jewish talk, Temple speech, those promised the earth, those that made "covenant" with their God. Look where you will, but please notice you will not find what Christ from Heaven revealed to Paul. Do we believe we will be "caught up to Christ in the air"? Then we must take note of where we first find this truth. We will not find such things in "Prophecy".
I can't speak for Ryrie, but I can repeat what God has to say on this matter. Seems Charles Ryrie has a very good grasp of the Word of God. Jeremiah 31:31-33, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." That time has not yet come for Israel. He is coming back to deal with His idol worshipping Nation that He created for Himself. This will happen when He is ready for it to happen, and it has not happened.
I think ones eschatology can contradict their soteriology without even knowing. [/quote]How true
If you mean “we” to be Gentiles, you are sorely wrong.
Huh?
Then the New Covenant that Jesus established is a different one than Jeremiah speaks of? What new Covenant did Jesus establish?
I think Albert Barnes has it right:
Jer_31:31
A time is foretold which shall be to the nation as marked an epoch as was the Exodus. God at Sinai made a covenant with His people, of which the sanctions were material, or (where spiritual) materially understood. Necessarily therefore the Mosaic Church was temporary, but the sanctions of Jeremiah’s Church are spiritual - written in the heart - and therefore it must take the place of the former covenant Heb_8:13, and must last forever. The prophecy was fulfilled when those Jews who accepted Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, expanded the Jewish into the Christian Church.
You seem to be of the dispie school of one plan for Israel one plan for the Church.
I think we see now the intent of the original post. One's eschatology requires them to deny the establishment of the New Covenant.
We are in the Body of Christ. When you find His Body Church, the Rapture, the One Baptism, etc. in prophecy past which Jesus said He fulfilled, I'll quite posting what most believe is "nonsense and heretical" from their belief. Jesus minced no words while on this earth and tells us what we are, but most will dispute to His face He cannot mean what He is saying - Matthew 15:26, and 7:6. How many ways does He have to say it?Grasshopper said:
Finish the thought that was presented.
Please look a little closer into Jeremiah above. Beyond the Cross, and this Grace period (dispensation God calls it) God is going to bring about what He promises. Other than in the minds of man, when were the Gentiles ever called, or included in the house of Israel? Notice further in verse 33 " I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." Where is the "gift" He today offers? This will be taken up to heaven at the Rapture. Prophecy says God will personally put His law into their bodies, and He will be their god, and they will be God's people. We today are the "sons of God".
Please read the prophecy again. Where is the Gentile in that prophecy. Has not our old friend from the past missed something?
Can we believe one that Christ personally spoke to, revealing His heavenly gospel to? Do we believe Paul when he tells us he will lay his foundation (gospel) on the foundation of Jesus Christ, and not another that builds on that same foundation?
Do we come from the "foundation laid down by Peter over to the foundation laid down by Paul. They both build on the foundation of Jesus Christ, but why would the earthly hand picked Apostles of Jesus, justified by faith (inheriting their own Kingdom that Jesus gives them) jump ship and scoot on over to build on the foundation of Paul? There are two (2) gospels, we can find them, during the time of the Apostles.
I knew you were paying attention, sharp and observant, and can be understood when we identify the "Kingdom Church, and the Body Church. You just did that.
I am not of the "great commission" of repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. This is the "Kingdom Church", of which evidently the Catholic's believe they are in. These must go through the "tribulation period". Where do we find the preaching of the Cross, the law of ordinances nailed to the Cross, and by the grace of God through faith preached, with no ordinances of law to boast about?
James will show you justification by works , but Paul will not. We must determine where, and when God shows these things to us. Please remember John wrote all of his Books about 30 years after the death of Paul, and some things found in those Books are only made for publication and understanding when the Holy Spirit inspired John to write.
Established, but the house of Israel refused; they stumbled (new covenant has not been ratified), and God's nation must now wait until He puts it into their body. We today accept the gift that they refused. For all practical purposes their last chance died when Stephen died. God today is not with Israel, but He has not forgotten them. God will see to it that the new covenant will be validated.
Amo 9:11 In that day will I raise vp the tabernacle of Dauid, that is fallen, and close vp the breaches thereof, and I will raise vp his ruines, and I will build it as in the dayes of old;
Amo 9:12 That they may possesse the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen; which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doth this.
Heathen=Gentiles.
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visite the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his Name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the Prophets, as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will returne, and wil build againe the Tabernacle of Dauid, which is fallen downe: and I will build againe the ruines thereof, and I will set it vp:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seeke after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, vpon whom my Name is called, sayth the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Your point is Jesus didn’t come to do anything for those outside the 12 tribes?
Act 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Act 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Well one could make the point that many times in the NT Gentiles are the House of Israel.
God divorced the 10 northern tribes:
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
They were sent among the gentiles and perhaps from man’s point of view were inseparable from the gentiles:
Hos 8:8Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.
Maybe this is to whom Paul was referring:
Rom 9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Christ came to reunite the House of Judea with the House of Israel:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
It was through the re-gathering that all men might be saved.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Then the New Covenant is not for you. Then how are you saved?
Where does Paul say this?
Peter and Paul preached the same Gospel. Peter preached what the prophets spoke of:
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Paul spoke of what the Prophets spoke of:
Act 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Paul=Peter.
Works salvation? This is what we do instead of Grace from the New Covenant?
Where does it say God’s Covenant must be ratified by the House of Israel? God’s Covenants seem to be one-way streets.
But you seemed to have made the point it was not for us therefore we cannot accept it.
Yet the NT writers see it has having been fulfilled:
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
I will say this, you are a consistent dispensationalist. If the House of Judah and the House of Israel have not been made one in Christ, then the New Covenant has not been established. This is why people like Ryrie must say we receive the benefits of the New Covenant but it has not been instituted yet. Ask most dispies and they will tell you of course the New Covenant has been established yet their eschatology says otherwise.