Downsizing the Ten Commandments

[BobRyan]

In the thread on “Rome’s Challenge” the argument is made for Christ the Creator's Sabbath Commandment by exposing the origins of the Man-made tradition of many TEN Commandment Christians who argue in favor of EDITING the 4th commandment in favor of week-day-one observance.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=941336#post941336


However to say that this is the way ALL Christians choose to ignore Christ the Creator’s Sabbath Commandment is painting with too broad a brush. For the other popular way to reject Christ’s Memorial of Creation – is to simply downsize the “Ten Commandments” to the “NINE Commandments” as is shown here.

DHK said

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=944679&postcount=92

Yes Bob, I believe in The Nine Commandments. That is, all Ten except the Sabbath.

The benefit of this form of rejecting Christ’s Sabbath Commandment “made for MANKIND” (Mark 2:27) is that it admits to two important truths.
#1. The Sabbath commandment of Christ DOES point to the Friday-evening to Saturday-evening time of the week.
#2. The Sabbath commandment of Christ can NOT be edited.

So in some ways this is a step forward.

So Let’s spend a few minutes exploring the fallacies in the argument of NINE Commandment Christians.

#1. The Bible speaks of the “TEN COMMANDMENTS explicitly – never the “NINE Commandments” so some edit of scripture is still needed.
#2. Christ said that the Sabbath was “MADE FOR MANKIND” Mark 2:27. In fact in Isaiah 66 God makes this prediction
“From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship”

Contrast that with the eisegesis DHK attempted in his “NINE Commandment” manifesto ..

DHK said

Yes Bob, I believe in The Nine Commandments. That is, all Ten except the Sabbath. The Sabbath was given to Israel alone as is specifically explained in Exodus 31. One cannot get around that portion of Scripture.

Is there ANYTHING in Exodus 31 of the form “Israel ALONE should obey God’s Word, Israel ALONE should honor the Ten Commandments, Israel ALONE should keep the Sabbath”??

No.

But in Isaiah 56 we DO see non-Jews being BLESSED for honoring Christ’s Sabbath.

Isaiah 56

6 ""Also the FOREIGNERS who join themselves to the LORD, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD, To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning THE Sabbath And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; For My house will be called a house of prayer for ALL the PEOPLES.''
8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares, ""Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered.''


So here is a thread to explore this option of "downsizing the Ten Commandments" instead of simply KEEPING all Ten and then "editing the 4th" as the link to "Rome's Challenge" showed us.


In Christ,


Bob

 

[gekko]

i don't believe in downsizing God.
i don't believe in downsizing his words.
i don't believe in downsizing the TEN commandments.
---

edit the 4th eh.

well - what about that scripture in the new testament that says "the Sabbath was not made for man but man for the Sabbath" ?

what's it mean?

well - sabbath basically means a 'day of rest' etc.

the 'Day of Rest' was not made for man - man was made for the 'Day of Rest'

the 'Day of Rest' doesn't need man - man needs the 'Day of Rest'

Sabbath doesn't need man to keep it - man needs the Sabbath. period.

God bless

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

How many times have I told you, BobRyan, 'downsisesing' the Ten Commandments is to pit it against Jesus Christ; to pit it against Christ is to place it in apposition to Christ. The two are incomparable, cannot be sized up up one against the other. Paul said it best, the glory of the Law becomes as NO glory against that of Jesus Christ. NO GLORY! Just by insisting upon it in the place of insisting on Jesus Christ only and alone! My patience with is getting short!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

i don't believe in downsizing God.
i don't believe in downsizing his words.
i don't believe in downsizing the TEN commandments.
---

edit the 4th eh.

well - what about that scripture in the new testament that says "the Sabbath was not made for man but man for the Sabbath" ?

what's it mean?

well - sabbath basically means a 'day of rest' etc.

the 'Day of Rest' was not made for man - man was made for the 'Day of Rest'

the 'Day of Rest' doesn't need man - man needs the 'Day of Rest'

Sabbath doesn't need man to keep it - man needs the Sabbath. period.

God bless

GE:
Your very own 'edition'? Novel, i must say.

 

[BobRyan]

i

edit the 4th eh.

That is the solution being addressed on the thread "Rome's Challenge" at the link given in the OP.

This thread is exploring another solution to the problem of avoiding Christ the Creator's 4th commandment regarding HIS memorial of Creation - His Sabbath commandment.

DHK proposed this downsizing solution on another thread. I am simply exploring it's pluses and minuses. And I observe that this solution is certainly NOT what Rome proposed.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[gekko]

Your very own 'edition'? Novel, i must say.

wow. i don't even know where that one came from.

ok mr. know-it-all -- what is the definition of Sabbath? it does mean rest.

and the sabbath wasn't made for man.
man was made for the sabbath.

if you don't agree with that i think you need to go back to pre-school or learn how to read or something.

wow. just wow.

 

[DHK]

Actually Bob is putting words in my mouth, something he has a propensity for doing. I challenge him to find an actual quote of mine where I used the word "down-sizing." I never did.
My statement all along has been that the Sabbath is not for the Christian, and there is no statement in the Bible that commands the Gentile Christian to keep the Sabbath anywhere, this side of the Second Coming of Christ. Bob has failed to prove me wrong. So he takes another route, a bit less ethical.

There are Ten Commandments. One of them does not apply to the Gentiles, only to the nation of Israel, which Exodus 31 so emphatically declares.

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
--It is for Israel only. The Scriptures make this clear.

When we come to the NT, this is what we read:

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

--Which law is written in their hearts? The Ten Commandments? NO! Not the Ten; but rather only some of the Ten. God wrote His moral law on the hearts of every man. He wrote the last six commands for sure. He has given everyman a consciousness that there is one God. But beyond that we cannot say anything about the Sabbath, taking the Lord's name in vain, (if they don't know the Lord's name), making images of God and bowing down before them, if they don't know who that God is. So perhaps God has put seven out of the ten commands on every man's heart, but not all. The simple thing to say is that God has written his moral law on every man's heart which does not include the Sabbath.

 

[gekko]

There are Ten Commandments. One of them does not apply to the Gentiles, only to the nation of Israel, which Exodus 31 so emphatically declares.

and the New Covenant was only for the house of Israel according to Jeremiah 31 is it?

Jesus said 'if you love me keep my commandments' - why bicker on what commandments those are? keeping the sabbath holy is a commandment is it not? doesn't matter who it's to. it's still one of GOD's commandments.

if we love him. keep his commandments.
---

oh i'm waiting for you to break out the levitical laws. oh i'm just waiting. c'mon. do it. you know you want to.

 

[DHK]

and the New Covenant was only for the house of Israel according to Jeremiah 31 is it?

Jesus said 'if you love me keep my commandments' - why bicker on what commandments those are? keeping the sabbath holy is a commandment is it not? doesn't matter who it's to. it's still one of GOD's commandments.

No the Ten Commandments are not "MY commandments" The Sabbath was not included when Jesus said "Keep my commandments." He was referring to "Love one another," Men ought always to pray and not to faint; Search the Scriptures; Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel; Ye shall be my witnesses; You must be born again; etc.
He said: Keep MY commandments. not Moses' commandments. He was discipling his followers, teaching them. They already knew the teachings of the OT. He wasn't being redundant.

 

[BobRyan]

No the Ten Commandments are not "MY commandments" The Sabbath was not included when Jesus said "Keep my commandments."

This is one of the purest forme of eisegesis that could be imagined as DHK simplyi "makes stuff up" whenever the Bible displeases him.

In the case above whe have Christ (the Jewish Messiah) speaking to His Disciples (ALL JEWS) in John 14:15 BEFORE THE CROSS (when by EVERY MEASURE all TEN commandments are valid).

EVEN by DHK's OWN statements the JEWS were supposed to Honor Christ's Sabbath commandment EVEN when DHK selects open rebellion against - JEWS were supposed to be LISTENINg.

So by every measure of CONTEXT these Jewish LISTENERS could not possibly have supposed "KEEP My COMMANDMENTS means REBEL against the Sabbath Commandment".

In fact Christ said in Mark 2:28 "The Son of man IS LORD of the Sabbath" just as in Isaiah 58 HE ALSO said "it is the Holy Day of of the LORD".

The abuse of scripture in DHK's statement above is blatant.

He said: Keep MY commandments. not Moses' commandments. He was discipling his followers, teaching them. They already knew the teachings of the OT. He wasn't being redundant.

The idea that Christ is NOT GOD and GOD's COMMANDMENTS are NOT Christ's is totally foreign to scripture. In John 14 where we find this very command CHRIST AFFIRMS AGAIN that the Words of God are in fact HIS WORDS!

10 ""Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
11 ""Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
...

14 ""If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
15 [b]"" If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.[/b]

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Actually Bob is putting words in my mouth, something he has a propensity for doing. I challenge him to find an actual quote of mine where I used the word "down-sizing." I never did.
.

#1. I gave the link to YOUR statement
#2. I QUOTED your statement
#3. My quote of you did NOT claim you used the words DOWNsizing -- you did that all by yourself -- I only quoted your own WORDS.

You have put words into my mouth sir - words I did not say about you.

For the other popular way to reject Christ’s Memorial of Creation – is to simply downsize the “Ten Commandments” to the “NINE Commandments” as is shown here.

DHK said

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=944679&postcount=92

Yes Bob, I believe in The Nine Commandments. That is, all Ten except the Sabbath.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to miss the quote box where YOU present your own downsizing argument as seen In YOUR OWN words. The reader is fully informed at that point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[gekko]

not Moses' commandments

oh. so the commandments that God gave to moses on the mountain... those are moses' commandments now?

those are still God's commandments - Jesus is God. (the whole Trinity deal)

and 'love your neighbor' - that is the summary (along with love the Lord your God etc) - a summary of the whole of all the commandments.

Jesus (God etc) - said to 'keep my commandments' -- which commandments are those again?

oh right... we're allowed to pick and choose. i forgot. i'm sorry. my bad.

 

[DHK]

oh. so the commandments that God gave to moses on the mountain... those are moses' commandments now?

those are still God's commandments - Jesus is God. (the whole Trinity deal)

and 'love your neighbor' - that is the summary (along with love the Lord your God etc) - a summary of the whole of all the commandments.

Jesus (God etc) - said to 'keep my commandments' -- which commandments are those again?

oh right... we're allowed to pick and choose. i forgot. i'm sorry. my bad.

One of the commandments of God to Moses was to cross the Red Sea. He gave that to Moses too. That's one commandment I don't obey.
Another commandment God gave to Moses that I don't obey is to keep the Sabbath Day. Both crossing the Red Sea and Keeping the Sabbath were given to the Israelites not to me.

 

[DHK]

It is IMPOSSIBLE to miss the quote box where YOU present your own downsizing argument as seen In YOUR OWN words. The reader is fully informed at that point.
In Christ,
Bob

I never presented a downsizing argument. You did, and then said it is mine. That is deceitful. I said that of the Ten Commandments nine apply to us and one does not. That is not downsizing anything. That is rightly dividing the word of truth. So your slander stands.

 

[gekko]

alright. you make a good point.

my probing question you could say then is this... why wouldn't you want to keep the sabbath day and keep it holy?

 

[music4Him]

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This 4th commandment says the the sabbath day was blessed and hallowed by the Lord. How then do we ignore that? This was important to the Lord, I'm not saying the other nine wern't but the sabbath was set aside and santified.
Not to forget the health benefits when taking one day and just resting. But now that is to to say, if your neighbor needs a hand you shouldn't use the sabbath as an excuse not to help them... go help em' because we ought to do good on the sabbath. I think thats what Jesus was trying to get across to the Pharisee when he told them about the ox and helping the neighbor.
Most every command in Exodus (not just the 10) and those in the Levitical law was given for good reasons... for the good of mankind.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

oh. so the commandments that God gave to moses on the mountain... those are moses' commandments now?

those are still God's commandments - Jesus is God. (the whole Trinity deal)

and 'love your neighbor' - that is the summary (along with love the Lord your God etc) - a summary of the whole of all the commandments.

Jesus (God etc) - said to 'keep my commandments' -- which commandments are those again?

oh right... we're allowed to pick and choose. i forgot. i'm sorry. my bad.

GE:

If you are thinking of only the Ten Commandments as the Law of Jesus Christ, you down-sise as well as downgrade both! Seriously so!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

We have three stances taken in in this thread, the SDA, the DHK, and an attempt at a fuller understanding.

Here is the SDA:

"Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This 4th commandment says the the sabbath day was blessed and hallowed by the Lord. How then do we ignore that? This was important to the Lord, I'm not saying the other nine wern't but the sabbath was set aside and santified." (Music4Him)

DHK:

Nine Commandments

GE:

Exo 20:11 For . . . LORD . . . RESTED the seventh day: WHEREFORE the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This 4th commandment says the the sabbath day was blessed and hallowed by the Lord. But why? "Because He RESTED and through and in His REST, established His creation. God's REST is what completes "ALL the WORKS, of God" (Hb4:4-5) How then do we ignore that? This was important to the Lord, I'm not saying ANY of the other six days' works weren't, but the Sabbath was set aside and santified, blessed and fulfilled in and through God's works of redemption which were the one work of Jesus Christ completed in resurrection from the dead. Were it not for Jesus' victory in and through resurrection from the dead, dead would all His works have become, His whole creation disappeared in the void.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:

" Keeping the Sabbath (was) given to the Israelites not to me."

Then why and how do you keep Sunday for 'Sabbath'? I've never seen anywhere in Scripture that God gave the gentiles a command or just a clue or the least of reason to keep Sunday. Why then does DHK even sanctify Sunday and hallow it - is he perhaps God?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:

"--Which law is written in their hearts? The Ten Commandments? NO! Not the Ten; but rather only some of the Ten. God wrote His moral law on the hearts of every man. He wrote the last six commands for sure. He has given everyman a consciousness that there is one God. But beyond that we cannot say anything about the Sabbath, taking the Lord's name in vain, (if they don't know the Lord's name), making images of God and bowing down before them, if they don't know who that God is. So perhaps God has put seven out of the ten commands on every man's heart, but not all. The simple thing to say is that God has written his moral law on every man's heart which does not include the Sabbath."

GE:

Natural man has none of God's commandments written in his heart. He doesn't care about any, but is TOTALLY DEPRAVED (we as Calvinists believe don't we?). If his conscience bothers him, unregenerate man shrugs it off merely and invariably - even though he is condemned for his audacity. He knows nothing of God's 'moral laws' otherwise he must have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit, either unto condemnation, or to salvation. You know that; why do you proclaim falsities?