Draw all men to myself

My Take on it:

Take all the verses in the NT that speak of drawing to salvation ( not that many) Here they are:


John 6: 44. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

So there we have it.

We have two statements. If we separate them and make them mean what they say apart form the other then we have a contradiction. Most would agree.

One seems to indicate that not all are drawn while the other includes everyone.

Jesus said no one come to Me unless God draws them. The question that we ask is reasonable. How them should I understand this single statement in light of what Jesus said?

My take: Because Jesus draws all to him (all mankind) then the father draws all mankind.

When you add the II Peter 3:9 passage with this it makes more sense to some of us.

9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

So we have the intent and will of God in this verse. God wishes, or wills that all not perish and all come to repentance. This would be in line with agreeing with Jesus statement “I will draw all men”

For me it is that simple. Now add Peters declaration that salvation is based upon Foreknowledge and that further clears the issue up.

 

What this verse is NOT saying..."Those who don't come to me were never drawn by the Father" as calvinists read it.

 

I know. The second verse and the II Peter verse and others are reasoned away.

They are not going to change.

I shared a moving experience with a person the other day and I will post the source of it here too in time perhaps today.

This person is a 5 pointer.

Here is the comment I received back in an e-mail "Its OK no meat" "I want meat in my church service."

We both understand what that means. Everyone should be taught sound doctrine (meat).

The information was of a couple who are missionaries in Atlanta in the slums, etc. It was a service that brought their experience to the greater congregation and shared with them their work and experience. What was happening with their work of evangelism of drug attics, prostitutes, homeless, etc.

What kind of response did this person give me. "It's OK - enjoyed the stories - not for me - I like meat."

You know, that is sad, in my estimation. I know there are exceptions. I have been around this for over 30 years now and it does not change. This form of belief is for the vast part cold toward salvation of the lost on the streets and in the mission field. It is just the way it is.

I don't remember where I heard it but someone said that the growth of churches that are Reform in teaching grew and their growth was mainly from existing believers and not conversions. Some conversion but very small.

ON the other hand church growth from churches that emphasize are basically form new believers and the rest are transfers.

Jesus said I will draw all men. That is good enough for me. The other passage must be see in this light or the two are contradictory.

 

This morning I was reading and came across...

2 Corinthians 5:17-20 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

When we, who are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, open our mouths and preach the gospel, to any man, are we not, as ambassadors for Christ, drawing men unto Christ? If a man believes and is saved he has in essence been drawn by the Father. (By the word of God and the Holy Spirit) If a man does not believe he has still in essence been drawn by the Father. (By the word of God and the Holy Spirit)

If I am wrong I have no doubt I will be told. :tonofbricks:

 

And what became of those who lived BEFORE Jesus was lifted up?

"now". What did the "world" do before Jesus came? Was there a "door" for them?

Were the Thessalonians drawn by the word only? How was Paul assured of the election of Thessalonians? See I Thess Chapter 1.

 

How are all men drawn to Jesus?
Those who reject Him on earth will meet Him when they are judged.
John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

J.D.,

I'll read the chapter in First Thessalonians, but first I must ask you, did I say "word only"? I'm pretty certain I included the Holy Spirit in the work I described.

 

Yep, J.D., I see it. I'll start with the verse I believe you were speaking of...

1 Thessalonians 1:5-10 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 

I would take it to mean that somehow someway all mankind will be drawn. I don't have all the answers as to how. The statement is clear and for that reason I see my God as just, loving, and Holy. I take Him at His word. I know that is simple but the statement is simple - I just accept it.

 

You didn't expressly exclude the work of the Holy Spirit, but your words were "are we not...drawing men unto Christ" (emphasis mine). Were the Jews "drawn" to Christ when Stephen preached? What was Stephen lacking in his ministry that people were not coverted under his preaching? Why did three thousand get saved on pentecost, and just a jew days later, the preacher got killed?

My point is that salvation is by the Spirit through the word. Words without the Spirit is just noise.

In the case of Stephen, the preacher was filled with the Spirit. The hearers were not. For the hearers, it was word only.

In the case of Peter on Pentecost, both the preacher and the hearers were filled with the Spirit. The word came to them in much power. The evidence, both in Jerusalem and in Thessalonica, was that they became followers of the Lord.

The Spirit blows where He wills.

Men are not drawn to salvation without the Spirit. They might be commanded to repent and believe, and perhaps their consciences may be pressed upon by the mercy of God, but only those whom the Spirit has awakened from the dead shall live.

 

Bringing up the case of Stephen made me think of this...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Were they resisting the "word only" or the Holy Ghost? If it was "word only", why mention the resisting of the Holy Ghost?

 

Not in the Bible. Conjecture. But let's say that did happen. What was the "choice" of those burning in hell? Were any of them saved?

Assuming the answer is "no", then why is that so? Wouldn't you, wouldn't anyone, have the good sense to repent and believe if they were standing in the very flames of hell and had opportunity?

 

Good point. The HG was in Stephen, not them. Of course they resisted. The unregenerate always resist God. Total depravity.

 

I'm outa time. Will check back later. Very busy these days.

 

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Maybe He preached to those where Abraham and Lazarus were. Maybe they were not burning because they had faith in God before they physically died.

Conjecture? Perhaps, but isn't that what calvinism is mostly based on?

 

Not at all.... simply sound biblical doctrine.

 

Quite the contrary. Free-willism is based on a few words (whosoever, all, any, etc.), and conjecture ("a righteous God wouldnt...", "a holy God wouldn't..."). Calvinism is based on whole clear passages of scripture, too numerous to quote in one post.

 

If that were true, why the endless debates? Don't you think if the doctrines you espouse were so clear and sound in scripture, we would all agree and move on to other discussions?