Drinking Alcohol Moderately

[annsni]

You have a very good point. I agree with you. I think many people have misconceptions about alcohol. It is so sad about how many young people end up drinking. One of my sister's friends believed in drinking moderately, but he ended up drunk. Many young people who believe in drinking moderately end up becoming drunk.

Here's some information I've researched:

I read how Noah made some wine from vineyard in the bible a while ago. It was alcoholic of course because he got drunk. I believe that it became fermented in heat so it became fermented wine. But I don’t think it became fermented wine immediately because the fermentation process takes a while. I believe Noah drank a lot of fermented wine. Lot certainly got drunk. His daughters had incest sex with him (what a horrible thing). But there are some puzzling things to me. It is my understanding that the alcoholic content today is much higher than the drinks in the bible because wineries and breweries often add more alcoholic content to them. When I was in college, one day the teacher had a class discussing different alcoholic drinks. The students talked about how better drinks were when they had higher alcoholic content. There was no distilled alcohol then. The wine was made from grapes and fermented in heat. We know it was very hot in Egypt and Israel at times of course.

I do believe that there were some alcoholic drinks in the biblical times. But I don’t think that 100% of the wine was fermented because it usually takes a few days for it to become fermented. The grapes must rot and ferment. Both unfermented wine (Grape juice) and fermented wine existed. There is one thing we need to also consider about the biblical times. Water was bad. There was no purification system then. It was actually best to drink unfermented or fermented wine then. There is one positive thing about alcohol is that it kills germs. You know nurses often rub alcohol on your arm before giving you a shot. Dr. John MacArthur, a pastor in California talks about how people often diluted alcohol in the bible with water.

I have done some research on the wedding that Jesus was at and I found a good article at http://www.learnthebible.org/jesus-and-wine.html. I think the wine at this wedding was unfermented and high quality grape juice because He made it immediately and didn’t use fermentation. I also think if it was alcoholic that some people at the wedding would have gotten drunk. Jesus is perfect and sinless. He certainly would not have made alcoholic wine to lead people to become drunk. There are a lot of scriptures especially in Proverbs that talk about the dangers of wine. I decided to experiment tasting two different grape juices recently. One tasted sour and one other tasted very good. I have never tried wine and I am not going to do that. I really believe God is grieved at how many alcohol problems we have in the world today.

I have found some articles on how to make wine at http://www.ehow.com/how_2258656_make-grape-wine.html and http://www.winehaven.com/WineMakingProcess2378.php (winery).

"because He made it immediately" - Did God created Adam as a baby or an adult? How about all of creation? Were plants created as seeds, birds as eggs and animals as infants? Can God create things with age?

"didn't use fermentation" - Where do you see this in Scripture? It doesn't say that, does it?

"I also think if it was alcoholic that some people at the wedding would have gotten drunk." - That is your view of it? What about the possibility of there being moderation and NOT getting drunk?

"He certainly would not have made alcoholic wine to lead people to become drunk" - I agree. But did God create alcohol? Did God create sex? We can equate the two because there is good and bad in both and there are warnings against certain uses of both and good words about both. To say that because it can cause sin that God wouldn't have made it is wrong thinking.

"There are a lot of scriptures especially in Proverbs that talk about the dangers of wine."
"I really believe God is grieved at how many alcohol problems we have in the world today" - With both these statements I agree. Man has once again screwed up that which God gave as a blessing.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

God permits the drinking of non-fermented wine and forbids the drinking of fermented wine.

No contradictions.

But... if all wine in the Bible were alcoholic in nature, then God would indeed be contradicting Himself.

Context shows not all wines in the Bible were alcoholic, contrary to what the moderation people claim.

 

[annsni]

God permits the drinking of non-fermented wine and forbids the drinking of fermented wine.

No contradictions.

But... if all wine in the Bible were alcoholic in nature, then God would indeed be contradicting Himself.

Context shows not all wines in the Bible were alcoholic, contrary to what the moderation people claim.

No - God forbids the getting drunk. He never once forbids the drinking of fermented wine and to say so is adding to the Word of God. Beware.

OK - I'm editing to add that He DOES forbid the drinking of fermented wine to particular peoples. But not to all believers as a universal rule.

Isaiah 25:6 clearly is speaking of alcoholic wine because of the reference to the "lees".

"And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined."

"Lees
A heavy sediment consisting of dead yeast cells and other solid matter such as grape pulp, pips and so on. Keeping the wine on the lees, especially if they are stirred from time to time, may be beneficial to the wine, imparting extra flavour and body. Eventually, however, they must be removed. This may be achieved by racking the wine off the lees. Residual solid matter may be removed by filtration."

from http://www.thewinedoctor.com/glossary/l.shtml

 

[Steadfast Fred]

No - God forbids the getting drunk. He never once forbids the drinking of fermented wine and to say so is adding to the Word of God. Beware.

OK - I'm editing to add that He DOES forbid the drinking of fermented wine to particular peoples. But not to all believers as a universal rule.

Isaiah 25:6 clearly is speaking of alcoholic wine because of the reference to the "lees".

"And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined."

"Lees
A heavy sediment consisting of dead yeast cells and other solid matter such as grape pulp, pips and so on. Keeping the wine on the lees, especially if they are stirred from time to time, may be beneficial to the wine, imparting extra flavour and body. Eventually, however, they must be removed. This may be achieved by racking the wine off the lees. Residual solid matter may be removed by filtration."

from http://www.thewinedoctor.com/glossary/l.shtml

Proverbs 23:31 is a clear command to abstinence. Look not thou upon the wine when it is...

And Proverbs 31:4 was a command that kings were not to drink wine.

You'll never convince me that God did not command abstinence. It's right there in His Holy Word.

You are taking modern definitions to describe an ancient practice. There are plenty writings from ancient times that speak of the lees settling to the bottom of the jar/wineskin and the wine itself not able to ferment in the least.

 

[jaigner]

You'll never convince me that God did not command abstinence. It's right there in His Holy Word.

Wow - talk about holding your perception of truth with a closed fist. This is what happens when we view the Bible through tinted lenses. Plus, it implies that everyone else is just stubborn and rebellious, carelessly tossing the Bible out. I assure you that I believe in the authority of scripture, take the Bible seriously, and seek the Spirit's leading in my life.

This is, quite simply, a matter of conscience.

 

[PrivateWoman]

Proverbs 23:31 is a clear command to abstinence. Look not thou upon the wine when it is...

And Proverbs 31:4 was a command that kings were not to drink wine.

You'll never convince me that God did not command abstinence. It's right there in His Holy Word.

You are taking modern definitions to describe an ancient practice. There are plenty writings from ancient times that speak of the lees settling to the bottom of the jar/wineskin and the wine itself not able to ferment in the least.

It is encouraging to see the strong stand you have taken against alcohol. So many people fail to see the truth about alcoholic drinks. I hate alcohol. I've seen so many things alcohol has done to people. I know that my cousin who was killed in that car accident didn't drink "too" much at first. I am sure he began drinking moderately. Many people who have become alcoholics drank moderately at first.

The pastor's son at my grandparents' church gave a testimony to the youth group last year. He started out drinking moderately. Then he increased how much he drank. Sadly, he got addicted to alcohol and had to get treatment. He encouraged the youth to never touch alcohol.

It is so sad about how many Christians think that drinking moderately is okay. I am so grateful for the parents God gave me. I am so thankful they were very strict about drinking alcohol.

 

[annsni]

Proverbs 23:31 is a clear command to abstinence. Look not thou upon the wine when it is...

I'll give you a hint. The best way to interpret Scripture is to read it in context. Read the context of that passage and tell me that is describing someone who is having a glass of wine with dinner.

And Proverbs 31:4 was a command that kings were not to drink wine.

And when I (a woman) become a king, I'll be sure to not drink wine.

You'll never convince me that God did not command abstinence. It's right there in His Holy Word.

You are taking modern definitions to describe an ancient practice. There are plenty writings from ancient times that speak of the lees settling to the bottom of the jar/wineskin and the wine itself not able to ferment in the least.

Do you know what the lees are?? The yeast that is now dead after doing it's job of fermenting the juice. You do not have lees without fermentation. Juice does not have lees.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I'll give you a hint. The best way to interpret Scripture is to read it in context. Read the context of that passage and tell me that is describing someone who is having a glass of wine with dinner.



And when I (a woman) become a king, I'll be sure to not drink wine.



Do you know what the lees are?? The yeast that is now dead after doing it's job of fermenting the juice. You do not have lees without fermentation. Juice does not have lees.

Even in context, Proverbs 23:31 still says not to drink wine when it is fermented... imagine that. It doesn't say drink moderately the alcoholic wine and then don't look upon it. It says not to look upon it when it is fermented.

According to Peter's epistle and the book of Revelation, we have been made kings already. It is not for kings to drink wine.

Try reading the writings of first centrury authors who wrote about the preservation of non alcoholic wines. Some record that if the wine is sunk in a pond the lees sink ot the bottom of the jar and separate from the non alcoholic wine. The temperature at the bottom of the pond is too cool for the wine to forment.

Check out the books On Agriculture and Trees by Cato, excellent source from the first century explaining the preservation of non alcoholic wines. Cato even records the non fermented wine was the preferred drink of that time.

See, first century writings refute the claims of today that all wines then were alcoholic.

 

[Jim1999]

Aside from scripture, try drinking alcoholic beverages in front of the world, and then preach separation from the world. It won't work.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[PrivateWoman]

Aside from scripture, try drinking alcoholic beverages in front of the world, and then preach separation from the world. It won't work.

Cheers,

Jim

I agree with you. I don't think my paternal grandfather who was an alcoholic would have become a Christian if a Christian who drank witnessed to him. He gave up alcoholic beverages completely when he got saved.

My maternal grandfather also used to drink alcohol for many years before he got saved. He believes that it is wrong.

Alcoholic beverages are so worldly.

 

[annsni]

Even in context, Proverbs 23:31 still says not to drink wine when it is fermented... imagine that. It doesn't say drink moderately the alcoholic wine and then don't look upon it. It says not to look upon it when it is fermented.

No it doesn't. It says to not look on it when it is red. So even grape juice is not allowed to be enjoyed if you go by that.

But instead the passage says not to look on wine when you are drunk.

Let's take a look at the whole passage:

[29]*Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaining?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes?
[30]*Those who tarry long over wine;
those who go to try mixed wine.
[31]*Do not look at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup
and goes down smoothly.
[32]*In the end it bites like a serpent
and stings like an adder.
[33]*Your eyes will see strange things,
and your heart utter perverse things.
[34]*You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,
like one who lies on the top of a mast.
[35]*“They struck me,” you will say, “but I was not hurt;
they beat me, but I did not feel it.
When shall I awake?
I must have another drink.”
(Proverbs 23:29-35 ESV)

Again, tell me that is speaking of the person who has 4 oz. of wine with dinner. It is not. It is very clearly speaking of drunkenness which God DOES condemn.

According to Peter's epistle and the book of Revelation, we have been made kings already. It is not for kings to drink wine.

The Proverbs passage is speaking to rulers of countries. Are we rulers of countries? We are talking apples and oranges here.

Try reading the writings of first centrury authors who wrote about the preservation of non alcoholic wines. Some record that if the wine is sunk in a pond the lees sink ot the bottom of the jar and separate from the non alcoholic wine. The temperature at the bottom of the pond is too cool for the wine to forment.

If the juice is too cool to ferment, then there are no lees. Less are dead yeast and a result of the fermentation process. You can't have both.

Check out the books On Agriculture and Trees by Cato, excellent source from the first century explaining the preservation of non alcoholic wines. Cato even records the non fermented wine was the preferred drink of that time.

See, first century writings refute the claims of today that all wines then were alcoholic.

I agree that not all "wines" were alcoholic and that at times, juice was considered wine as well - but usually "new wine". But "wine well aged" "on the lees" cannot mean anything BUT fermented wine since lees are a by-product of the fermentation process.

You can't argue with the truth as much as you'd like to.

 

[annsni]

Aside from scripture, try drinking alcoholic beverages in front of the world, and then preach separation from the world. It won't work.

Cheers,

Jim

Well, we can apply this to entirely too many things. Abstaining from alcohol does not mean separation from the world at all. It just means you don't drink. Separation from the world would remove us from all influence to and from the world including the internet. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Jim1999]

We were talking about alcohol consumption and its influence on the unsaved audience.

Certainly we can get stupid about a lot of other things, including bouncing a ball on Sundays.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Aside from scripture, try drinking alcoholic beverages in front of the world, and then preach separation from the world. It won't work.

Cheers,

Jim

Amen and amen!

I wonder how many people have been made drunks because they believed the myth that it was ok to drink in moderation and the alcohol deceived them into believing they could have one more responsibly? and one mare... and one more... and one more

Alcohol deceives the one drinking it and many a man has ended up in hell who started out in 'moderation.'

 

[annsni]

Amen and amen!

I wonder how many people have been made drunks because they believed the myth that it was ok to drink in moderation and the alcohol deceived them into believing they could have one more responsibly? and one mare... and one more... and one more

Alcohol deceives the one drinking it and many a man has ended up in hell who started out in 'moderation.'

So you're saying that you lose your salvation because someone drinks? That's a salvation based on works, you know.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

So you're saying that you lose your salvation because someone drinks? That's a salvation based on works, you know.

I never said one loses one's salvation, annsni. Please don't misrepresent me.

If one ends up in hell because their moderation took them there if proves they never had salvation in the first place. One cannot lose ones salvation.

In the last decade, I have seen the deaths of many people who started a lifetime of drunkenness drinking in moderation. Proverbs states that wine has the ability to deceive the one drinking it. Moderation advocates dismiss this fact. They think, "I can handle it, I know my limit," when in reality, the alcohol has already deceived them.

The moderate drinker may not notice the effects of that 'one drink,' but the effects are there just the same. The effects are very subtle. A 120 lb woman will register a .03
BAC after just one beer. That is nearly halfway to a DUI. Now, this same woman may not be drunk by the state's standards, but therein lies the problem. Everyone wants to bring God down to the level of man and make His standards fit their desires rather than make their desires fit His standards.

God's Word states we are not to drink wine that is fermented. Over and over He condemns fermented wine. But man wants to do that which is right in his own eyes. He wants to think "I'm not sinning because I haven't drunk enough to get drunk." Since one can begins affecting motor skills, I'd say they are already drunk and just don't realize the beer or wine has deceived them.

 

[annsni]

I never said one loses one's salvation, annsni. Please don't misrepresent me.

If one ends up in hell because their moderation took them there if proves they never had salvation in the first place. One cannot lose ones salvation.

In the last decade, I have seen the deaths of many people who started a lifetime of drunkenness drinking in moderation. Proverbs states that wine has the ability to deceive the one drinking it. Moderation advocates dismiss this fact. They think, "I can handle it, I know my limit," when in reality, the alcohol has already deceived them.

The moderate drinker may not notice the effects of that 'one drink,' but the effects are there just the same. The effects are very subtle. A 120 lb woman will register a .03
BAC after just one beer. That is nearly halfway to a DUI. Now, this same woman may not be drunk by the state's standards, but therein lies the problem. Everyone wants to bring God down to the level of man and make His standards fit their desires rather than make their desires fit His standards.

God's Word states we are not to drink wine that is fermented. Over and over He condemns fermented wine. But man wants to do that which is right in his own eyes. He wants to think "I'm not sinning because I haven't drunk enough to get drunk." Since one can begins affecting motor skills, I'd say they are already drunk and just don't realize the beer or wine has deceived them.

You continue to insist that something that is not in Scripture is. Where does it say in the Bible that we are not to drink wine that is fermented?

 

[rbell]

You have a very good point. I agree with you. I think many people have misconceptions about alcohol. It is so sad about how many young people end up drinking. One of my sister's friends believed in drinking moderately, but he ended up drunk. Many young people who believe in drinking moderately end up becoming drunk.

Ok, so there's no debate whatsoever with regards to "young people" and drinking if we're talking US kids under 21. It's illegal. They cannot participate without sinning, because they would be disobeying a God-ordained source of authority.

Anyhow....here's my take on alcohol consumption. We've been answering the wrong questios in this process. Perhaps this route might serve us better... (forgive that it's a reprint of an older post of mine--but there are new folks looking, so here goes:
Is it a sin for me to drink? Wrong question...the better question is: "Is it wise for me to drink?"

• The small potential upside (enjoying a drink) with the large potential downside (risk of intoxication and its associated problems).
  • If I were to get drunk, I could lose my job, and put my family at risk. Too high a risk for a beer.
  • If I were to get intoxicated, I could say or do things that damage my ministry and witness. Why risk it?
• There has been a history of alcoholism in my family background. If there is any sort of genetic basis, why risk it?
• I tell my students not do drink...and then I do? I see that as hypocritical. I'd rather lead by example.
• Drinking offends quite a few Christians I work with, and minister to. I'll take the "Paul and meat" example here, and give up my liberty for the sake of the Gospel.
• Simply, I don't need to drink. There's other options that have no downside that meets my needs.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Ok, so there's no debate whatsoever with regards to "young people" and drinking if we're talking US kids under 21. It's illegal. They cannot participate without sinning, because they would be disobeying a God-ordained source of authority.

Anyhow....here's my take on alcohol consumption. We've been answering the wrong questios in this process. Perhaps this route might serve us better... (forgive that it's a reprint of an older post of mine--but there are new folks looking, so here goes:

Is it a sin for me to drink? Wrong question...the better question is: "Is it wise for me to drink?"

• The small potential upside (enjoying a drink) with the large potential downside (risk of intoxication and its associated problems).
  • If I were to get drunk, I could lose my job, and put my family at risk. Too high a risk for a beer.
  • If I were to get intoxicated, I could say or do things that damage my ministry and witness. Why risk it?
• There has been a history of alcoholism in my family background. If there is any sort of genetic basis, why risk it?
• I tell my students not do drink...and then I do? I see that as hypocritical. I'd rather lead by example.
• Drinking offends quite a few Christians I work with, and minister to. I'll take the "Paul and meat" example here, and give up my liberty for the sake of the Gospel.
• Simply, I don't need to drink. There's other options that have no downside that meets my needs.

You have one of the best posts out there. Thank you!

Again, I think a lot of this is both geographical (more of an issue in the states and particularly the south than other areas) and denominational (more of an issue with Baptists than others).

 

[SaggyWoman]

Simply, I don't need to drink. There's other options that have no downside that meets my needs.

Yeah, like annoying people. :laugh::love2: