Drinking Responsibly

[Dr. Bob]

On the Cinco de mayo thread it was stated that Jesus "drank [alcohol] responsibly". Is this:
(1) A true statement
(2) An example for us to follow
(3) An oxymoron

I would love to hear your beliefs . . and scriptural support for it. Think it will be a new slant on the question of alcohol that rises periodically on the BB.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Well, if you stuck my name there, then it would be an oxymoron.

However, I really don't know if I have an answer for this.

Here's what I do know:

I, personally, don't drink.
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• I take medication that cannot be mixed with alcohol.</font>
• The Bible says that "wine is a mocker" and "strong drink [beer] is a brawler".</font>
• Of the "responsible" drinkers that I know, none are responsible.</font>

Did Jesus drink?
</font>

• He drank something .</font>
• We have to rule out mint julips, tea, coca-cola, and gaterade.</font>
• I do not believe that he would have created something, ( water into wine ), that was for the purpose of defiling the bodies of the wedding guests.</font>

Now that I haved muddied the waters and not answered the question, let me add one more thing to my tip-toeing around the subject.

Jesus came from a different culture. Wine was part of the meal.

We live in a very juvenile culture. Bathroom humor, drunkeness, and giggling like children reigns supreme.

Our attitudes towards alcohol are babyish and stupid. Watch your television and take a good look at beer commercials. Read your magazines and take a critical look at hard liquor ads.

We are promised youth, vitality, and sex from the alcohol industry.

If you want to drink wine with your meals, I'm not going bring the Temperance committee after you, however...

...if you use Jesus Christ's miracle at the wedding as your validation to drink, period, then in my opinion, you are just as immature and stupid the industry that pours it down our throats.

In our culture, I believe that the responsible thing to do is to abstain, if at all possible.

Peace,

YSIC
Scarlett O.

&lt;&gt;&lt;

 

[KenH]

I don't think it is even questionable as to whether Jesus drank wine or not - He did. And we know He did not drink to the point of becoming drunk.

Luke 7:34(NASB)
34 “The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’"

Matthew 26:27-29(NASB)
27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
29 “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

 

[Harald]

Jesus Christ obviously drank wine (oinos). Some say it was not alcoholic wine but some kind of juice made of grapes. Such would have been referred to by the word trux, but this word does not occur in the NT. The wine which Christ commanded his disciples to drink as picturing His blood of the New Covenant was alcoholic. Non-alcoholic grape juice is unfit to picture or typify His sinless blood because it contains leaven.


Harald

 

[donnA]

If I were responsable I wouldn't be drinking at all.
Oh, yah, I don't drink.

 

[Anthro]

Where is the refrigerator or ice blocks shipped in from the North?

That's right, they did not exist.

While new wine may be grape juice, when one stores grape juice it is impossible for it to not turn into wine with alcohol content. That is why wineskins expanded (fermentation process) and you could not use them again lest they burst.

I maintain that it is a ridiculous legalistic manipulation of the Scriptures to say that wine was nothing but grape juice.

Jesus drank wine as did probably most of the apostles and most of the other Christians in the NT times and culture. It was not taboo nor sin to drink wine. It WAS taboo and sin to be a drunkard, or to be so inclined.

I believe one may use alcohol apart from sin. I believe the taboo against many modern Christians using it in a controlled way is just that, a culturally-based taboo. While taboos have their reasons oft times, they are not necessarily equated as sin in the eyes of God, though at times they correspond very nicely.

I drink alcohol on occasion, especially while immersed in other cultures where controlled use of alcohol is not at all taboo among Christian. When I do so, it is with a larger purpose in mind. No one should feel so inclined to do as I do if there conscience is not okay with it. If it is impure to you, then let it be and obey. If it is pure to me, then I will follow my conscience on the matter.

Either way, one must be very careful in light of all the Scriptural admonitions we all know well. Generally, one does best to leave the stuff to heck alone.

[ April 19, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Anthro ]

 

[KenH]

Good post, Anthro. Indeed, until the Temperance Movement sprang up in the U.S. in the 1800's, Christians drank alcoholic beverages just like everyone else.

The logic is that since bad things can happen when a person becomes drunk, then no one should drink at all. The problem with that logic is that one can also say that since bad things can happen when a person eats - choking, becoming obese - then no one should eat at all.

I haven't see any Christians promoting the idea that Christians should not eat.

So, if you drink, then drink responsibly. If you eat, then eat responsibly.

 

[Anthro]

That is a really witty way to think about it!

 

[Anthro]

Does anyone know when sterilized canning was developed in history?

 

[donnA]

just like everyone else.

There in lies the problem,
see we aren't everyone else.
We are to be seperate.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
There in lies the problem,
see we aren't everyone else.
We are to be separate.

Non-Christians eat, drink, sleep, drive cars, have babies, have jobs, wear clothes, etc., etc., etc. So do you think Christians are to do none of these things since "everyone else" does them, too? That would certainly make us separate.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Ahh...

...witticisms.

That indeed was not one.
...................................

Yes, I believe that Jesus drank and I don't believe that it was grape juice.

Yet, I choose not to drink based on how I feel that the Bible advises me .

And I still say that for every legalistic Christian who believes that Jesus drank grape juice, there are ten-thousand Christians who believe that Jesus turning the water into wine is call for drinking without any consequence.

Both Christians are dead wrong.

I live in the land of "good old boys" and "beer bellies". There is no responsible drinking here.

Period.

Peace-

YSIC
Scarlett O.

&lt;&gt;&lt;

 

[Ian]

Before being saved I was an alcoholic I would drink anything (with alcohol in it)anytime.This curse held me for thirty years, and then my beloved wife led me to Jesus. In an encounter with my Lord he asked me to be more responsible - he did not say don't drink anymore, just to be more responsible. I have never drunk alcohol since the need has gone it has been replaced by an intoxication that doesn't come with a hangover.

Ian

 

[Anthro]

I live in the land of "good old boys" and "beer bellies". There is no responsible drinking here.

I would argue that within such a sub-culture, it may be very wise for the Christian to abstain or just keep their mouths shut about what they may do at home say, over a special dinner with their wife that might include some wine.

On the other hand, maybe actually being an example of responsible use of alcohol can be just as affrontive to drunkards, maybe even more so, than those who make taste not and touch not fence rules.

Being seperate is primarily about a life and worldview. I am deeply entrenched within the world system and its activities while being seperate from it in that way. The cliche has merit: in the world, not of it.

 

[Artimaeus]

Do you know anyone who "drinks responsibly" and NEVER and I mean NEVER crosses the line and drinks too much? I don't. They all say, "I know when I have had too much". I could agree, but you see, the only way they can know they have had too much is to cross that line and almost everyone I have ever seen defending drinking alcohol on this board admits that crossing the line is sin.
Yes, it seems Jesus did drink real wine. At this time in history there were not any options, you drank wine, fresh milk, or bad water. You pretty much did not have much choice. I would do the same thing. In our time we do however, have many, many choices. You can choose to drink wine and at some point cross the line and sin (you will and you know you will) or you can choose to drink alternatives that do not increase the likelihood of sinning. If I have no choice I will drink wine, but I do, so I won't. Who is being more responsible, you or me?

 

[rsr]

Anthro, sterilized canning was (what a shock to us) developed by the French. Napoleon offered a prize to merchants who could supply his army with food that wouldn't rot, and champagne bottles provided the first "canned" foods.

Not only that, Pasteur (eek! another Frenchman) was called in to save the wine industry from spoilage and developed — how original — pasteurization, a heat treatment that killed the bugs without destroying the wine.

But we wouldn't want to leave out Koch (oh, no, a German!) who really developed the theoretical foundation of germ theory and identified several deadly pathogens.

Actually, the tin can is an English invention "lifted" from the French, who didn't understand the applications of the technology they'd developed.

Of course, frozen foods are an American invention, based on the natural experiences of the Innuit.

But you already knew this, which is why you asked the question ...

 

[Anthro]

Who is being more responsible, you or me?

We are both being responsible because it seems we are living by our conscience and by the faith we have and are putting this matter in some cultural perspective.

Rom 14:1 Now receive one who is weak in faith, but not for disputes over opinions.
Rom 14:2 One man has faith to eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
Rom 14:3 Don't let him who eats despise him who doesn't eat. Don't let him who doesn't eat judge him who eats, for God has received him.
Rom 14:4 Who are you who judge another's servant? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteems one day as more important. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks. He who doesn't eat, to the Lord he doesn't eat, and gives God thanks.
Rom 14:7 For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself.
Rom 14:8 For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Rom 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, "'As I live,' says the Lord, 'to me every knee will bow. Every tongue will confess to God.'"
Rom 14:12 So then each one of us will give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Therefore let's not judge one another any more, but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block in his brother's way, or an occasion for falling.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; except that to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 Yet if because of food your brother is grieved, you walk no longer in love. Don't destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Then don't let your good be slandered,
Rom 14:17 for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Rom 14:18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
Rom 14:19 So then, let us follow after things which make for peace, and things by which we may build one another up.
Rom 14:20 Don't overthrow God's work for food's sake. All things indeed are clean, however it is evil for that man who creates a stumbling block by eating.
Rom 14:21 It is good to not eat meat, drink wine, nor do anything by which your brother stumbles, is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who doesn't judge himself in that which he approves.
Rom 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because it isn't of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin.
Rom 15:1 Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Rom 15:2 Let each one of us please his neighbor for that which is good, to be building him up.
Rom 15:3 For even Christ didn't please himself. But, as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me."
Rom 15:4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that through patience and through encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
Rom 15:5 Now the God of patience and of encouragement grant you to be of the same mind one with another according to Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 15:7 Therefore receive one another, even as Christ also received you, to the glory of God.


`

[ April 19, 2003, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Anthro ]

 

[KenH]

I agree with this quote by Increase Mather, the first president of Harvard and the father of Cotton Mather: "Wine comes from God, but the drunkard from the Devil."

Deuteronomy 11:13-14(NASB)
13 “It shall come about, if you listen obediently to my commandments which I am commanding you today, to love the Lord your God and to serve Him with all your heart and all your soul,
14 that He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early and late rain, that you may gather in your grain and your new wine and your oil.

1 Corinthians 10:31(NASB)
31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

 

[Haruo]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kate B...007:
There in lies the problem,
see we aren't everyone else.
We are to be separate.

Non-Christians eat, drink, sleep, drive cars, have babies, have jobs, wear clothes, etc., etc., etc. So do you think Christians are to do none of these things since "everyone else" does them, too? That would certainly make us separate.

</font>[/QUOTE]Separate is putting it mildly. Very few non-Christians manage to get let alone keep a job if they don't eat or wear clothes.

I'm sure Kate knows that.

But exactly in what ways if any Christians (all or some) are called to "be separate" is clearly a matter of debate and even dispute, and (I think) of conjecture.

BTW, Harald, is "trux" a subset of "oinos" or are they separate items in Koiné Greek? The Hebrew blessing of the wine (referring to "fruit of the vine") is equally apposite with wine, grape juice, or even table grapes, though it is typically used with wine.

Haruo

 

[russell55]

rsr,

Don't you know? The Innuit who invented frozen food were CANADIAN!