Early Church Dads And Reformers ...

... who had Calvinistic sentiments . This thread is in reference to the info which was culled from the work of Ron Rhoades . Rhoades may call himself a Calvinist , but since he keeps company with Norm Geisler and Hank Hanegraff I wouldn't bet the house on it .

I have gathered some info from John Gill's : " The Cause Of God And Truth " to rebut Mr. Rhoades . First of all the early Church Fathers were not overtly Calvinistic because it was an assumed stance . For Rhoades to put Augustine in the ranks of those who believe in a general atonement is absurd . He must have gotten confused with the pre-Retractions Augustine vs. the latter , more biblical model .

Herewith follow a couple of examples .

Clement of Alexanderia : ... God distributes his benefits both to the Greeks and to the Barbarians ; and to them who are predestined from among them , and are in his own time called , fruitful and elect . ( p.268 )

Athanasius : How therefore should he chose us before we were , unless , as he has said , we were before deliniated in him ? How verily , before men were created , should he predestinate us , unless the Son of himself had been founded before the world was having undertook the economy of salvation for us ? ( p.233 )

Cyril of Jerusalem [ Hierosolymitanus ] : ... the church of the whole world ... the world of men that believe in him that was crucified .

Gregory of Nazianzen : God does not take pleasure in the multitues ; thou numberest myriads , but God , those that are to be saved ; than the unmeasurable dust ; but the vessels of election . ( p. 235 )

 

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Basil : We are the nation , of whom the Lord is our God ; we are the people whom he has chosen for an inheritance for himself ; a nation truly , because we are gathered out of many nations : a people verily , because we are called in the room of a people cast away , and because many are called , and few are chosen ; he calls not him that is called , but him that is chosen , blessed ; therefore is he whom he hath chosen . ( p. 235 )

Those few selections were from John Gill's research . Shortly I will quote Francis Turretin , from his :"The Atonement Of Christ " (p. 115 ) . This concerns Prosper , a younger contemporary of Augustine . Prosper says : Those who embrace the Pelagian heresy , profess to believe that Christ died for all men universally , and that none are excluded from the atonement and redemption which the blood of Christ has effected .

Now moving on to some Reformers , I am amazed that Rhoades would put Luther in the camp of those who support an indefinite atonement . His " The Bondage Of The Will " was stronger that anything Calvin wrote on the subject for instance .

Jerome Zanchius ! Rhoades certainly did not do his homework on this predestinarian . Zanchius wrote the famous " The Doctrine Of Absolute Predestination " . I have Toplady's translation from the original Italian ( or was it Latin ? ) back in the states .

Henry Bullinger was instrumental in the very strongly Calvinistic works -- the 1st and 2nd Helvetic Confessions .

Martin Bucer ! He was a primary mentor of John Calvin . Calvinism might very well be called Bucerism . Bucer was calvinistic before Calvin arrived on the scene .

I'm surprised that Rhoades didn't include Gottschalk of the 800's -- he was double predestinarian all the way ! He endured imprisonment and torture for his beliefs of the same .

Why didn't Rhoades include John Knox who studied at Calvin's feet ? How about Twisse and Gomarus from the generation following Calvin's ? Perhaps Rhoades didn't want to get in too deep with those who actually know the reality of the men of the past who were certainly not holders of an unlimited atonement , but maintained an unflinching belief in the Lord's sovereign choice of some for eternal life .

 

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Multiple post -- tech difficulties .

 

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Mistake due to tech problems .

 

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Can we all say " OOPS " together ?

 

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I don't mean to be repetitive , but ...

 

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I had never even had one double post before to my knowledge . Now six in a row !

 

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... Over and over and over again ...

 

Exactly Allan ...

... Folks should examine things for themselves . Athanasius , Basil , Cyril , Gregory and all the rest do not do double-speak . Oh , I missed Ambrose who led Augustine along spiritually : "The remnant , are saved , not by their own works , but by the election of grace . " ( p. 237 in Gill's book ) .

So many others were mentioned in passing by Rhoades without a quote --- just an assertion that they believed in universal redemption . Just trying to do a bit of truth-telling here .

 

Oh Allan , BTW , I had mentioned that Rhoades must have been confused about Augustine . A number of beliefs that he held to earlier on were renounced in his Retractions . Of course he changed his views . He used to be an ardent free-willer . But maybe you weren't reading my posts so well ( your old eyes and all . ) . Maybe you'll have to retract some things said in your haste .

 

Allan , if you could care less means you have the capacity to care more . And I trust you will care more . Don't go and impugn John Gill's word . There aren't many in Church history who could match up with him in several areas where he excelled . He did not make up the quotes he listed . I would say your sources such as Rhoades are far more vulnerable and questionable . Gill versus Gill ? Hey , it's Gill any day -- hands down !

Forgive me , but I will have to repeat myself . Athanasius , Basil and the others that I quoted are not engaged in double-talk . They did not believe in universal salvation . They believed that Christ died for the elect . A number of men that Rhoades mentioned in passing did not hold to a general salvation . And Rhoades did not back his assertions up with any quotes . You will have to cite where saints such as Bucer and Zanchius opined that Christ did not die for the elect . I have a clue for you . Your task will be in vain should you even try .

Augustine changed a number of his theological views especially on the notion of the will . He formally changed his mind in written form -- they are found in his Retractions . Yes , he was a free-willer previously .

Many Church Fathers were Calvinistic . They did not have a systematic approach to the discussion though . It is similiar to the doctrine of the Trinity . Many folks had a good general grasp of the teaching but it was not articulated -- mainly assumed . The Nicea Confession fleshed things out in a cogent manner later on in 325 for the first time .

I admit that there are variations among synergists of various stripes regarding the nature of the will . But it still boils down to the biblical testimony being denied . The natural person has no ability to discern the spiritual . People have a natural disability . They do not have the "freedom" to choose God . They are bondslaves to sin . They are not in the dark -- they are darkness . They are depraved . So folks who are enslaved with no power or ability of their own to "decide for Christ " have no true liberty with respect to their wills .

It is really amazing that so many professing Christians join hands with the unregenerate world at-large in espousing "free-will" . Show me any worldling who denies free will ( not counting the fatalists of Muslim persuasion ) .

 

Okay Allan , listen carefully . John Gill was an early Church authority ( as well as an authority on a number of things in thelogy proper ) . He was quoting the early Church Fathers . He was not stating his opinion of what they said -- he was actually quoting them . I still haven't seen any quotes furnished by you of some men Rhoades said believed in an indefinite atonement . Men such as Bucer and Zanchius were firm believers in the doctrine of a particular atonement -- that Christ died only for the elect . Rhoades listed a bunch of names with no quotes -- just lumped em together and said , "There ya go . Here's some more Arminian Calvinists for ya ." Naw , it doesn't wash Allan .

I am sorry that you took offence with my comment that so many professing Christians join hands with unregenerate worldlings in their common belief in classic free will . But it is a fact nontheless . Have you ever met a Mormon or JW who denies free will ? I didn't think so .

I am not questioning your salvation Allan . I do not believe you are believing in the doctrines of demons . I believe you subscribe to some sub-biblical ideas ( worldly philosophies ) . God can change you . I can not . God can change me . You can't . I have blind spots -- all Christians do . As we continue our sojourn down here and meditate on His Word we will grow into greater conformity with His mind on a number of teachings that the Bible presents .