Featured EFS

I definitely don't see where that belief makes Jesus lesser. But it does appear that the fight between complimentarians and egalitarians has subsumed this debate.

I admit to not studying much on this topic, so my initial question would be to ask what's the relationship between incarnation and immutability.

 

NKJV Philippians 2
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

These two clauses are 3rd person aorist active indicative.

Whatever "subordination" is imagined does not exist because He did these things to Himself.
The scripture dies NOT say that the Father made Him of no reputation or that the Father humbled Him - that would be subordination.

This is "agreement" not "subordination".

HankD

 

Isn't that conflating domination with subordination? One can willingly subordinate themselves, right?

(I fear this conversation will hinge a great deal on semantics.)

 

No, I don't accept that.

It might appear that way, but no.
I have sometimes used a military scenario;
The Logos and the father AGREED for the Logos (7 star general) to take on the rank of a private (wear the uniform of flesh - born of a woman) on His mission to save mankind, agreeing to obey the orders of the Father.

Jesus lost NOTHING in the incarnation else He could not be worshiped.

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshiped him.


HankD

 

I'm still not seeing it.

If we want to use military analogies, what about two captains in the cockpit. One will be pilot, the other copilot. The mission plan will dictate who serves in what role. But they are still the same substance.

Sproul's thoughts on the end of Luke 22 seem to sum it up for me:

It is important to see what Jesus prays here. He says, “Not My will, but Yours, be done.” Jesus was not saying, “I don’t want to be obedient” or “I refuse to submit.” Jesus was saying: “Father, if there’s any other way, all things being equal, I would rather not have to do it this way. What You have set before Me is more ghastly than I can contemplate. I’m entering into My grand passion and I’m terrified, but if this is what You want, this is what I’ll do. Not My will, but Your will, be done, because My will is to do Your will.”

If It Be Your Will

 

You scared me. I thought you said EF 5, which, being from Alabama is something I never want to see.

 

Agreement of roles is not subordination of persons but agreement of roles.

the Father did not make Him of no reputation He made Himself of no reputation.

The Father did not humble Him, He humbled Himself.

Obviously there was an agreement of obedience of rank to do the Father's will.
Still not subordination but an agreement between the Father and The Son (to me anyway) as to roles and the rules of engagement.

This He did for a little while here on earth for the benefit of mankind.

RSV Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.

Brethren please don't accept the doctrine of the Subordination of the Son.
This is the first step on the way to Arianism, the last step is the denial of His deity.

HankD

 

There is no eternal subordination of Jesus to the father, as that was on a temp time while here upon the Earth..
Dr Grudem has stated that he will revise his ST to reflect that is not true, as he has changed his mind on issue!

 

I don’t know, I'll standby to hear from others. And I am certainly not wed to EFS.

But my understanding of the word subordination sure is different than some of y'all's.

 

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Grk root submit - hupotasso Is never used of the relationship between the Son and the Father except in this one passage
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

In the passage you gave he said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

Remove this cup from me
It is in the Imperative mood - a command.

A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Dana and Mantey, pg. 174.

Jesus did not say that He submitted to the will of the father but rather He would choose His will (the Father's) over His own will.

That is not subjection.

HankD

 

He did, as he agreed to be in subordination while here on earth at that time.

 

Believe what you will.

Jesus Christ was is and always will be equal to the father in all ways.

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Never subordinate. That is Arianism!

HankD

 

@rsr , can I ask where exactly in the Nicene Creed do you see subordination causing a conflict?