Election

[steaver]

I know of no other system of theology that would make such a remark, unless they were speaking directly to the grounds of salvation as opposed o the conditions of salvation.

Every position concerning ones theological beliefs has logical ends that cannot be avoided.

This "distinction" created out of your own necessity to somehow support your misguided views is nothing but double speak.

The object is the same for both of your "distinctions", that being salvation.

The object is the same no matter if you say grounds or if you say conditions, that object is salvation.

Declare a "distinction" all you like, either way the object is salvation. Thus, your view on salvation is faith plus works. No way around this even if you have convinced yourself in your own mind that making up some sort of distinctions has liberated your pov.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver, deny the conditions of salvation. Deny the grounds of salvation being clearly distinctive from the conditions of salvation. Make salvation, repentance, faith and whatever you so desire "all of God." Just don’t be upset when I point out that the system of theology you are representing is precisely in lock step with the system of Calvinism. The system of thought you are representing and Calvinism are in reality one in the same in their most important ends, as both are systems of necessity, determination, and as such fatalistic.

 

[DHK]

HP: I believe you presume your remark in error. It has everything to do with Calvinism. It is the Calvinist, those leaning hard towards Calvinism, and of course yourself, that would offer the remark “it is all of God.” I know of no other system of theology that would make such a remark, unless they were speaking directly to the grounds of salvation as opposed to the conditions of salvation.

Salvation is all of God. I will repeat that again, and the fact that almost all evangelicals believe it, not just Calvinists. It is just as orthodox a doctrine as saying that Jesus is the only way to heaven. You do believe that don't you?
As for grounds and for conditions, you make a dichotomy where there is none.

HP: Christ is indeed the only one that can take away sins, but if you make God the ‘sole cause’ of ones salvation you have just entered the arena of election precisely from a Calvinistic perspective whether or not you desire to be seen in that camp or not.

Utter nonsense! Christ is greater than Mr. Calvin, and lived long before Mr. Calvin. It is Christ who is the sole cause of my salvation and not Mr. Calvin. You are a very confused man.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
--He is the "sole cause," the author, the finisher; he keeps that which I have committed unto him, the author of eternal life, the propitiation for my sins, the lamb which takes away my sins, my mediator that stands between me and God, my Good Shepherd which gave His life for me, the Great I Am, the One who changes not, Immortal.
In fact:
1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
He is the sole cause of my salvation, for:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--for without Him there is no salvation. He is the sole cause of salvation.
Without him there is nothing but eternal condemnation and deservedly so. This is not Calvinism. It is personal evangelism 101. What good thing have you done to merit a standing before the presence of a holy and just God? Why should he allow you into his heaven?

Calvinism has been around a lot longer than you or I have been around

Calvin is dead; Jesus lives!!

and has been saying precisely what you are saying long before you ever graced this earth with your presence. Call yourself whatever you so desire, but you will never shake the connection between your views and the age old system of Calvinism if you say the same things as that system has been purporting for hundreds of years.

Because you are not an evangelical Christian you cannot see the difference between Calvinism and what other believers hold to be true. You apparently believe in a works-based salvation and have told us that you put philosophy above the importance of the Word of God. What more does one have to say. It is no wonder that you are so confused.
I am not a Calvinist; there are many points of Calvinism that I disagree with. Your logic is absurd at this point.
I believe that Jesus Christ was born of virgin, conceived of the Holy Spirit, lived, died, was buried, and rose again the third day. The RCC believes the same thing. That doesn't make me a Catholic because we have those things in common. But your logic would say so.

It is not name calling to simply point out clear comparisons between ones thoughts and a well known system of thought, but rather mere reasonable association with such a well known and well recognized system of thought.

Right, and according to the above, you are a Catholic also?

I do not believe there is one other system of thought that eliminates all conditions to salvation other than Calvinism or a system of thought leaning hard towards that system.

Then you don't know many systems of thought. To think that all systems of thought can be confined within the parameters of just two men (Calvin and Arminian), is ridiculous.

HP: DHK, when you say that it is “all of God” and that the is the “sole cause” of salvation, you have just stated the very essence of the Calvinistic notion of predestination.

That is your conclusion; that is not what I say. I cannot help it if you are confused. Salvation is all of God. He said: "I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." Salvation is all of God. There is no other way.

Double predestination is nothing more than the absolute and unavoidable logical deduction of God being the sole cause of salvation. To deny double predestination is to deny that God is the sole cause, which you say He is.

You are very confused. I said nothing of double predestination. You did, and unwisely came to that unsound conclusion. Christ is the sole cause of salvation. He is the only way. That says nothing of double predestination, which I have said nothing about. Watch where you tread.

Every position concerning ones theological beliefs has logical ends that cannot be avoided. If you despise the logical ends of Calvinism, at some point in time you are going to have to change the way you word your positions if you do not desire to be compared or associated with that system of thought.

I don't see your thoughts as being very logical at this point.
When you put philosophy as more important than the Word, I don't consider your logic at all.

 

[Rippon]

if you make God the ‘sole cause’ of one's salvation you have just entered the arena of election precisely from a Calvinistic perspective whether or not you desire to be seen in that camp or not.

WOW! I know many non-cals who would agree that God (specifically Christ) is the sole cause of one's salvation. What is radically wrong -- oe as you would say --Calvinistic, about that utterly scriptural view HP?

 

[steaver]

Steaver, deny the conditions of salvation. Deny the grounds of salvation being clearly distinctive from the conditions of salvation. Make salvation, repentance, faith and whatever you so desire "all of God." Just don’t be upset when I point out that the system of theology you are representing is precisely in lock step with the system of Calvinism. The system of thought you are representing and Calvinism are in reality one in the same in their most important ends, as both are systems of necessity, determination, and as such fatalistic.

It is odd that I one day became a Calvinist before I ever read anything the man ever wrote.

Now the grounds and/or conditions set forth by God for the "object" which is salvation has all be met and fulfilled by God through Jesus Christ. My faith alone (given also by God btw) in Him and His accomplishments has secured my eternal life.

In your view, one must keep God's commandments as a "requirement" for salvation. Call this "requirement" a "condition" or call it a "ground" it matters not. The end is the same, no condition met no salvation. No ground met, no salvation. "Your distinction" changes nothing.

I asked you before if you could give a resource that supports this distinction. I don't recall reading any commentary that promotes this distinction you promote.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

If it will make some of you feel better, I can say salvation is all of God as well.:thumbsup:

Some of you need to start thinking outside of the box (leave the 'Calvinistic ranch' so to speak, for a moment) that you have created for yourselves, (without any help from Calvin by the way, or so we are told). No sir. Some of you just fell out of the sky believing as you do, islands to yourselves, everything hammered out 'solo anvilious,' i.e. on your own anvils alone and only. :laugh:

 

[ccrobinson]

If it will make some of you feel better, I can say salvation is all of God as well.:thumbsup:

Some of you need to start thinking outside of the box (leave the 'Calvinistic ranch' so to speak, for a moment) that you have created for yourselves, (without any help from Calvin by the way, or so we are told). No sir. Some of you just fell out of the sky believing as you do, islands to yourselves, everything hammered out 'solo anvilious,' i.e. on your own anvils alone and only.

So, you've stooped to the level of saying that DHK and Steaver are lying? Nice.

 

[steaver]

If it will make some of you feel better, I can say salvation is all of God as well.:thumbsup:

Some of you need to start thinking outside of the box (leave the 'Calvinistic ranch' so to speak, for a moment) that you have created for yourselves, (without any help from Calvin by the way, or so we are told). No sir. Some of you just fell out of the sky believing as you do, islands to yourselves, everything hammered out 'solo anvilious,' i.e. on your own anvils alone and only. :laugh:

This is your error brother. You presuppose that everyone who holds any belief that Calvin held and wrote about holds it because they heard it from Calvin or a resource reitterating Calvin. As DHK has pointed out.

This is a presupposition, something you generally have a contempt for.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
HP: I believe you presume your remark in error. It has everything to do with Calvinism. It is the Calvinist, those leaning hard towards Calvinism, and of course yourself, that would offer the remark “it is all of God.” I know of no other system of theology that would make such a remark, unless they were speaking directly to the grounds of salvation as opposed to the conditions of salvation.

DHK: Salvation is all of God. I will repeat that again, and the fact that almost all evangelicals believe it, not just Calvinists. It is just as orthodox a doctrine as saying that Jesus is the only way to heaven. You do believe that don't you?
As for grounds and for conditions, you make a dichotomy where there is none.

HP: Don’t even try and make this about something it is not DHK. No one has denied or suggested that there is another way to heaven for a sinner than through Jesus Christ. That is NOT what is at stake in our discussion here.

IF you could effectively define what an evangelical is, and IF you could prove that “most” evangelicals agree, and IF it could be concluded that your remark is true, who knows but that it might also be true that most called ‘evangelical’ might be either Calvinistic or leaning hard that way? So what is your point and what does it prove??

What “dichotomy” am I making or suggesting exists? A word used in two differing senses as Scripture uses it is not a ‘dichotomy’ that I am aware of. Can you explain yourself?

 

[DHK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
HP: I believe you presume your remark in error. It has everything to do with Calvinism. It is the Calvinist, those leaning hard towards Calvinism, and of course yourself, that would offer the remark “it is all of God.” I know of no other system of theology that would make such a remark, unless they were speaking directly to the grounds of salvation as opposed to the conditions of salvation.

Salvation is all of God.
There are no conditions to salvation. It always has been that way for Calvinists and non-Cals alike.

HP: Don’t even try and make this about something it is not DHK. No one has denied or suggested that there is another way to heaven for a sinner than through Jesus Christ. That is NOT what is at stake in our discussion here.

When you suggest that philosophy is more important than the Bible, then you suggest there is another way.
When you suggest that works are necessary to salvation, then you suggest another way.
When you suggest that "continued obedience" is necessary for salvation, then you suggest there is another way to heaven.

IF

you could effectively define what an evangelical is, and IF you could prove that “most” evangelicals agree, and IF it could be concluded that your remark is true, who knows but that it might also be true that most called ‘evangelical’ might be either Calvinistic or leaning hard that way? So what is your point and what does it prove??

Merriam Webster says that an evangelical is: of or relating to the Christian gospel.
euagellion--eu + angellion = I bring good news. or I bring the gospel.
The trouble is HP, that once you involve works there is no gospel. You have no gospel to preach as long as you have that "continued obedience" inserted into your gospel message which the Bible calls accursed.

Evangelicals don't believe in a gospel of works, but you do.
Evangelicals all believe that it is Jesus only; His grace alone, faith alone, in Christ alone that saves. But you must include works, and that is not the gospel but a false message.

What “dichotomy” am I making or suggesting exists? A word used in two differing senses as Scripture uses it is not a ‘dichotomy’ that I am aware of. Can you explain yourself?

You make a dichotomy by using the words grounds and conditions.
The ground is the foundation which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Salvation is by faith and faith alone.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--Faith has an object. The object of our faith is Jesus Christ.
It seems that the object of your faith is Christ + works, and that is not Biblical.
Salvation is by God alone. There are no conditions. When God gives one a free gift common sense tells you there are no conditions. The Bible tells you there are no conditions. There never has been any conditions and never will be. Salvation is completely unconditional and always has been.