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Emergent Church Movement

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 28, 2005.

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  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    What does Brian Mclaren believe about salvation, blood atonement, and homosexuality?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #1 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 28, 2005
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    #2 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 28, 2005
  3. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    I've just read McLaren's "A Generous Orthodoxy." It should be required reading for Christians, I think.
     
    #3 tragic_pizza, Mar 28, 2005
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    What does he believe about salvation, blood atonement, the authority of Scripture, and homosexuality?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #4 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 28, 2005
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Here is a snippet of what Mclaren thinks about the Christian view of Hell and eternal punishment:

    Deconstructing Hell
     
    #5 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 29, 2005
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    bump
     
    #6 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 29, 2005
  7. violet

    violet Guest

    :eek: :eek: :eek:
     
    #7 violet, Mar 29, 2005
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    That is exactly what I thought when I saw it. I wonder if there are any followers of the emergent movement here who would like to defend these ideas. How about it, Tragic?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #8 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 29, 2005
  9. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    McLaren has an orthodox view of all of those things, Joe. He's one of those people (like the late Mike Yaconelli) who believes that it's OK to think, and thus has no problem saying things to make people think.

    And I am with him in this: I know that the Book of Revelation promises the Lake of Fire for certain people; many of those people are people I love. Perhaps there is a better option; likely, though, the point of it all is to be less hell-centric in our thinking and more like Jesus - cognizant of Hell, but bent on sharing His love and light with the world.

    Joe, have you read any of McLaren's books?
     
    #9 tragic_pizza, Mar 29, 2005
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Nope. I have no reason to read anything this liberal has to say. I have, however, talked to a friend of mine who has read all of his books and met the guy. The basic bottom line is that he is a liberal who really doesn't believe in a literal Hell. BTW, speaking of him being a liberal, where does he stand on the blood atonement of Christ? How about you? Have you read all his books? How much do you really know about what he teaches and how much do you really agree with him?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #10 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 29, 2005
  11. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    I think it's a really good policy to go through life basing my opinions on something my friends have read.

    I think I've mentioned that I've read "A Generous Orthodoxy." I agree with much of what he says in re the unity of the Body, and the things which are important to that end versus the things we have decided to make important. He and I disagree on the role of Scripture, I think, though, as I've mentioned, McLaren tends to say incendiary things not because he believes them, but because he wants to make people think for themselves.

    I think, beyond this, that I will parrot back what you've told me: I don't need to justify myself to you at all.
     
    #11 tragic_pizza, Mar 29, 2005
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Okie Doke.

    Then, I will reach my own conclusion and state that Mclaren is a false teacher, a liberal theologian, and full of the spirit of Anti-Christ. I would encourage all Christians to stay as far away from this non-Christian cult as you can.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #12 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 29, 2005
  13. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    You do that, and I will in contrast restate my belief that every Christian who is not afraid of thinking for themselves read "A Generous Orthodoxy."
     
    #13 tragic_pizza, Mar 29, 2005
  14. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    This is the mindset that would have the church become like some kind of floozie to become more attractive to the world.

    It's called Spiritual Adultery. We are called to resist it.
     
    #14 Monergist, Mar 29, 2005
  15. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    Is it? The idea that we many should be one in Christ is spiritual adultery?Wow, someone should tell St. Paul about that.
     
    #15 tragic_pizza, Mar 29, 2005
  16. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    I think he might be referring to the liberal theology that Hell is not a literal place, but a metaphor for shame, judgement, etc...

    He might also be talking about the idea that we should not focus on doctrine which seperates us, but all in the name of unity, just accept each other as Christians regardless of what someone teaches. This is liberal, anti-God theology and should be avoided at all cost.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #16 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 29, 2005
  17. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    Well, Joe, since I've read at least one book by him, I'd say he isn't liberal on his theology of the existence of Hell.

    His position at least seems to be that there is more that can join us than should continue separating us, yes, and I disagree that this is an anti-God theology. Further, though, this obsession with listing all of the people who are going to Hell serves to drive unbelievers away, especially when said lists always begin and end with people who they percieve to be other Christians. In any case, one young Wiccan I know has been witnessed to at least three times with this opener: "Don't you know you're going to Hell???" Needless to say, this tactic has been ineffective in bringing her into the Kingdom.

    So if scaring Hell out of a sinner doesn't work, Joe, what does?

    Loving Hell out of them, that's what. Read the Gospels, and you will see that this is precisely what Jesus did.
     
    #17 tragic_pizza, Mar 29, 2005
  18. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    So TP,

    Would you advocate changing the Gospel to make it more pallatable to the wisdom of this world? I think Paul had something to say about this:

    1 Corinthians 1

    My biggest problem with this is the idea of using tactics to convince the lost of their need for salvation. The further we take the wisdom of man and of this world, the more we tend to deny the truth of the Word of God, which is where I think Brian McLaren is taking the Emergence Movement. This is the essence of liberal theology, to change the truth of God until it meet the approval of man. Unfortunately, it loses the approval of God, and that is more important to me. I am against using fear or any other type of "tactic" in witnessing. I believe that we are to share the Word of God with the lost and those whom God saves will be saved. My job is not to convince the world of the truth, which is foolishness to them. My job is to present the truth and pray for the world. It is God and his spirit which convinces the hearts of man of their need for salvation. As Paul said in Chapter 2 of the same book:

    1 Corinthians 2

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #18 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 29, 2005
  19. Christlifter

    Christlifter New Member

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    The joining point is the Scriptures, not if you call yourself a "Christian" of whatever stripe.
     
    #19 Christlifter, Mar 29, 2005
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    The stripe of Christian you are can effect your view of scripture, however. For example, if one is a liberal Christian, they might argue that there is no Hell, that Hell was just a metaphor for judgment.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #20 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 29, 2005
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