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Engel Scale

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by glfredrick, Jan 19, 2012.

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  1. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    #1 glfredrick, Jan 19, 2012
  2. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    I think this scale is of utmost interest, and is a refreshing topic.

    Any point of the scale where a "prayer of salvation" is offered prior to "personal problem recognition" is simply to bring one into a state of faith in faith, not proper salvation. How can one prior to this ever be saved, for He came to save the lost, Luke 19:10; the ungodly, Romans 5:6; the hostile, Colossians 2:21, and we can add Romans 3 as well, and much more.

    One interesting note about where man should be at salvation reminds me of Paul Tillichs famous "Ultimate Concern" referring to man and his state, deep need, and passion at the point of salvation, what takes place at this point &c.

    It's been a while since I've looked into Tillichs reason here, but that is also his point as well as concerning the state of man at salvation (i.e. personal problem recognition.)

    - Peace
     
    #2 preacher4truth, Jan 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2012
  3. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    To be sure, I have some problems with the scale, but present it as a topic of discussion because it is a fresh look at some of our concerns.
     
    #3 glfredrick, Jan 19, 2012
  4. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Yes. One of my concerns is that persons properly come to a place where they know they are lost, pr, one of "ultimate concern" not just that they want to pray a prayer "so they can go to heaven."
     
    #4 preacher4truth, Jan 19, 2012
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Where is justification? It goes from conviction to sanctification.
     
    #5 Amy.G, Jan 19, 2012
  6. mont974x4

    mont974x4 New Member

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    biblically sanctification really means to be set apart by God for His holy purposes. So, I would put that prior to the foundation of the world.

    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
    Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
    Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
    Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (NASB)


    I understand why people who define sanctification differently (for example Nazarenes and others of a Welseyan background) would have an issue with my understanding.
     
    #6 mont974x4, Jan 19, 2012
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    OK.... so what is the point of this exercise? :confused:
     
    #7 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 19, 2012
  8. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    We would be elected by God beforehand, then justified, and progressively sanctified!
     
    #8 DaChaser1, Jan 19, 2012
  9. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    This threads going nowhere slow. :tongue3:

    I thought it was an interesting point, especially on what must take place prior to salvation as men come to understand their lost state in accord with Scripture, AND according to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. This especially in light that some on here reject the biblical lost state of man, and fight for mans goodness in his said state.

    Scripture has a serious problem with this, and I side with Scripture. :)
     
    #9 preacher4truth, Jan 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2012
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    SOME!?! Heck there are full colleges, universities & seminaries deadicated to this teaching.....face it brother, we hold to the minority position. However, thats OK by me.... my God actually saves people.:love2:
     
    #10 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 19, 2012
  11. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Well, I qualified "some" by "on here" but you are correct.

    One cannot be saved until one knows he's lost, and this comes by the Holy Spirit. But it amazes me that some still fight for how good and moral man is in his lost state. These same become quite livid about the Romans 3 indictment upon all of mankind. These same must have felt they were in the "good ol' boys" club and were subsequently chosen.
     
    #11 preacher4truth, Jan 19, 2012
  12. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    "Not fair that God would blame me and pass judgement on me for something Adam did. Not fair that He imputed that to me/against me, and I have no choice to even get saved if I wanted to, as He won't let me!"
     
    #12 DaChaser1, Jan 19, 2012
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Again.....for the record; the person who wants salvation already HAS it. The individual who hungers and thirsts (desires it) after righteousness is a blessed character (Matt. 5: 2-6). The alien sinner doesn't want salvation, they doesn't fear God, nor do they love God; therefore we conclude that the person who wants salvation, fears God and loves God is a subject of grace (Rom. 3: 11, 18; I John 4: 10).
     
    #13 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 19, 2012
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Glfred my brother, you are going to have to detail out for me the finer points of tha chart.....I think I understand it, but thinking is not knowing. Please take a few.:thumbsup:
     
    #14 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 20, 2012
  15. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    This chart is ONE WAY that some see the advance of the kingdom into the heart of an individual.

    Some use it as a guide for evangelistic practice, in a Finney sort of way, whereby one is brought to a point where he or she finally accepts Christ. Of course, the chart is predominantly non-Calvinistic in nature, which is why I posted it. It does raise questions such as the one above concerning justification, and also raises questions concerning one's ability to chose Christ instead of Christ chosing he or she.

    But if one holds to the Doctrines of Grace he or she already knows that the ability to respond to the effectual call of God means that the grace has already been extended to make that "choice" possible -- a point that both Calvinists and Arminians agree upon, albeit with differing interpretations of the nature of that grace.
     
    #15 glfredrick, Jan 20, 2012
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for the explaination my brother:thumbsup:
     
    #16 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 20, 2012
  17. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    We hash out the same issues over and over here, and the fact that most never come at an issue from another perspective means simply that they have no other perspective.

    In more simple terms, ignorance leading ignorant.

    And, BTW, none of that means that I actually agree with the Engle Scale. I posted it for discussion.

    Here is another version of the Engle Scale, listed in text format:





    There is another scale by James W. Fowler that some here would identify with:


    And, there is yet another scale that I sort of helped work on (I did core research for the project) via the book, "The Unchurched Next Door," called (after its author) the Rainer Scale.



    I disagree with Rainer's findings and find that more persons are U-4 and U-5 than he thought from the research. I arrived at my private conclusions based on what was not quantified in the study, i.e., the number of flat-out rejected calls -- persons who would not speak about their faith base at all for any reason, whether positive or negative.

    That being said, I tend to agree with the concept of the scale in that God is working to effectually draw some to salvation and they may be at any point along the continuum in their progress unkown to us or even at times to themselves.
     
    #17 glfredrick, Jan 20, 2012
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was the role of the Holy Spirit to do the persuading not some "communicator"!
     
    #18 OldRegular, Jan 21, 2012
  19. mont974x4

    mont974x4 New Member

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    I would change your word "sanctified" to "cleansed", or perhaps "grows into the image of Christ". This is a work that continues as the Holy Spirit reveals our sin. we are already sanctified.

    Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (NASB)
     
    #19 mont974x4, Jan 21, 2012
  20. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #20 convicted1, Jan 22, 2012
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