Entire Sanctification/Sinless Perfection

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: What civil law is not ordained of God.

HP: As a general statement one can say that God indeed ordains governments, but that is not to say that God ordains all civil laws. Civil laws reflect the specific needs of a particular society as decided upon by the ruling class, and may not in the least reflect anything in particular that God ‘ordains.’ That is not to say that one should not obey the laws of man as long as they do not contradict moral principles instilled within us via conscience or Scripture. Society could not be maintained in any reasonable manner apart from the willing obedience to its dictates.

DHK: God ordained government just as he ordained marriage. It is a God-ordained institution, which makes the laws, the laws of God.

HP: Human governments in no way ‘make the laws of God.” Good government should always pattern their laws after the immutable laws of God.

DHK: Am I at liberty to be a law-breaker? Paul endeavored to be a good citizen of Rome, though the laws of Rome were corrupt.

HP: That totally depends upon the law that man has set up. If the laws of man violate the laws of God, we are under obligation to disobey man’s laws.

DHK: Thankfully God did not ordain pirates. That is a red herring.

HP: I smell no fish. Some societies have so corrupted themselves that man is compelled by conscience to rebel and often form new governments. Our nation would not exist today if men would not have refused to submit to unfair, unwise, and repressive laws of man. The mere fact that you recognize that the law of pirates are not ordained of God, is reason to believe that you would be wise and understand that some governments have instilled laws just as repressive and wicked as that of a bunch of pirates.

DHK: If I were to ask you: "Is it right to lie in some cases," would you agree or disagree.

HP: Intent is everything concerning morals. God alone will be the judge of that. I am thankful I have never been placed in a situation that I would have to face the question you raise. As a general principle, lying is indeed wrong. Just the same, sin is above all else selfishness. I can see some instances in history that lying was not done in any selfish manner, and that it was done to deceive the enemy of life, liberty, and well established God-ordained moral principles, therefore I believe morally acceptable ion such cases. I will not be the judge of any such cases. God alone will be their judge, and mine as well if I would ever happen to encounter such distressed circumstances. I pray that I will not ever have to face such circumstances.

DHK: To entertain evil thoughts is sin. The Bible says it is.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
--Do you not endeavor to bring every thought to the obedience of Christ?

HP: Absolutely I do. Just the same, temptation does not come without thoughts of selfishness. As you so aptly point out, temptation is not sin. We have often heard that one cannot keep the birds from flying over our heads, but we can keep them from building a nest or roosting there.

DHK: I believe you used the word "mistake" before I did, thus muddling the conversation. There are some that believe in entire sanctification, but when pinned down on an obvious sin, they revert back to the excuse and say--"oh that was just a mistake." No, such "mistakes" (in that context) are sins.

HP: Are you the judge of the thoughts and intents of another man’s servant? What may appear to you as sin may not be in the case of another. Just as you at one time told us that if we break civil law we would be in violation of God’s law and be sinning, I can tell you unequivocally that that may not be the case. Just the same, you are correct in that we have to guard against judging sin in our lives as mere mistakes. I cannot help but wonder what would that be to you, seeing you believe they have already been paid for? For one that feels that one could be in the very act of adultery and still make it to heaven if one was to die while committing such sin, I cannot see the validity nor the seriousness of your admonition and accusation of one that would call sin a mere mistake. It would appear to me that you are more interested in building a case against one claiming to live in obedience to God’s Word than worrying about transgressing His law.

DHK: A lie (that you so obviously told by "mistake") is still a lie, and is still sin. My meaning is that "mistakes" can't be an excuse to say that you haven't sinned. Yes there are some honest mistakes. But let's not use the word "mistake" for an excuse for sin.

HP: If there was no intent to selfishly deceive, especially in the case you mention when one did not have knowledge of something being told that may not have been factual under different light, it is NOT sin, and is indeed a mistake. Intent must be established as being selfish for sin to be predicated of the intent.
Quote:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

 

[Brother Bob]

I guess they mean the American Government? In the other Governments they ravage, rape, steal, mass killings all in the name of the Government.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Reformedbeliever: Sin is simply falling short of the glory of God. There was only one who did not fall short, and that was Jesus. On our best day, our righteousness is as a filthy rag. Do I need to tell you what kind of rag is being mentioned here? Our righteousness..... our best day..... waking with a prayer on our lips, fellowshiping with God all day, and going to bed with a prayer on our lips, is still like a filthy rag.

HP: Not to God! It is a gross miscalculation of the nature of righteousness to associate it with filthy rags as you do here. No such association is every seen in Scripture. God rewards righteousness. The Scripture you are referring to may in fact be referring to more than one idea. Our righteous has NO power to save, and we as sinners cannot do enough good works to ever atone for a single sin, and in THAT case are seen as useless. Just the same, God calls upon us to be righteous, not filthy rags. To equate righteousness to filthy rags would be paramount to saying God associates righteousness just the same as sin, obedience just as disobedience, holiness just as sinfulness. Nothing could be further from the truth. Even David stated that Ps 18:20 ¶ “The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.”

Shall we equate righteousness and obedience as no more worth to God than filthy rags? That is simply absurd unless you are going to clarify what in fact it is that righteousness will not and cannot atone for.

There is yet another take on that verse “all our righteousness is as filthy rags.” that has been suggested by some. A new Jewish bride was given a piece of white cloth to place under herself on her wedding night, as proof of her virginity. That ‘filthy rag’ or ‘menstrual cloth’ was proof of her oath of being a virgin, proving that indeed she was who she said she was, and that indeed she was truthful in that which she swore to during the betrothal period.

Even as that ‘filthy rag’ proved the honesty and validity of the brides claim of virginity, our works indeed serve as a testament and proof of our allegiance to our God.

 

[Allan]

I agree Allan and have never said any different but I don't say the civil laws are ordained of God and don't believe they are. Jesus said they were Ceasars.

I never said that either. I said we are to abide by them as we would abide by Gods laws.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: I guess they mean the American Government? In the other Governments they ravage, rape, steal, mass killings all in the name of the Government.

HP: Even our American government has its obvious flaws. Take a good look at the confiscatory laws of property now being inflicted upon some individuals, businesses, and churches. I am sure we all could give an example.

Why do we have three branches of government? To try and balance the power and errors of the other. Which one is God ordained? Is it the law of some leftist liberal federal judge in California, or our Constitution?

We need to start thinking right about sin and what God requires out of us as believers, and our obligations to civil governments.

 

[DHK]

I guess they mean the American Government? In the other Governments they ravage, rape, steal, mass killings all in the name of the Government.

Did the Roman government do that in the time of Paul? Yes they did.
Did Paul or Peter at any time condone an overthrow of the government?
Absolutely not!
In fact in all cases they both commanded to submit to the government no matter how wicked it was. Read and study Romans 13 and the First Epistle of Peter.

 

[Brother Bob]

Did the Roman government do that in the time of Paul? Yes they did.
Did Paul or Peter at any time condone an overthrow of the government?
Absolutely not!
In fact in all cases they both commanded to submit to the government no matter how wicked it was. Read and study Romans 13 and the First Epistle of Peter.__________________
DHK

They were not crazy DHK, there was just a few of them compared to Rome. No one could conquer Rome, they had to destroy themselves.

 

[DHK]

They were not crazy DHK, there was just a few of them compared to Rome. No one could conquer Rome, they had to destroy themselves.

So do numbers make a difference in deciding on whether we should obey the Bible or not?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: So do numbers make a difference in deciding on whether we should obey the Bible or not?

HP: Relax, it’s all under the blood DHK, bought and paid for two thousand years ago. For you to even suggest that something a Christian could do, even failing to obey the bible (such as adultery on ones deathbed) would be punishable as wrong or sin is simply suggestive that the blood of Christ is insufficient to cover for such trivial matters, and in effect trampling on the blood of Christ……………or so it would seem from what I have been hearing.

 

[DHK]

HP: Relax, it’s all under the blood DHK, bought and paid for two thousand years ago. For you to even suggest that something a Christian could do, even failing to obey the bible (such as adultery on ones deathbed) would be punishable as wrong or sin is simply suggestive that the blood of Christ is insufficient to cover for such trivial matters, and in effect trampling on the blood of Christ……………or so it would seem from what I have been hearing.

I believe it is all under the blood.
There are some here that don't

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I believe it is all under the blood.
There are some here that don't

HP: If that is not a license to sin, I cannot think of anything that could possibly be. What you have said in essence is, that it does not matter what one does if they have exercised faith at one time, nothing can affect their standing with God.

It is pure spiritual folly to talk of forgiveness or forgiveness of sins without following the Biblical mandate to repent and turn from sin, exercise faith, and continue in obedience until the end.

I certainly believe that all our sins can indeed be under the blood, but not without meeting the conditions God has set down in His Word, and reason clearly attests to.

 

[DHK]

HP: If that is not a license to sin, I cannot think of anything that could possibly be. What you have said in essence is, that it does not matter what one does if they have exercised faith at one time, nothing can affect their standing with God.

It is pure spiritual folly to talk of forgiveness or forgiveness of sins without following the Biblical mandate to repent and turn from sin, exercise faith, and continue in obedience until the end.

I certainly believe that all our sins can indeed be under the blood, but not without meeting the conditions God has set down in His Word, and reason clearly attests to.

You certainly implied a lot for what I did not say. I never said any of what you said.
All our sins are under the blood.
Some here do not beleive that.
Now from those two simple statements how do you get the rest of what you just posted, much of which is false accusations

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

It has been rightfully stated, that law without penalty might in fact be good advice or council, but it is NO law at all. In order for law and its penalty to be just, the penalty of the law must be fairly corresponding to the infraction. Scripture represents the penalty for sin as eternal separation from God.

When we set aside the penalty for sin without meeting the conditions for forgiveness that scripture mandates, upon the presumption that God will atone for such sin on account of our past faith, we have sinned presumptuously and are advocating a clearly antinomian position.

We should pray with David, Lord, keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sin.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

May it be ever so in all of our lives.

 

[Shiloh]

1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1. The believer is said to be in Christ, John14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
2. Christ is said to be in the believer, Rom.8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
3. The Father and the Son are said to dwel in the believer, John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
4. The believer is said to be a partaker of the divine nature IIPeter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

As believers we:
1. Are "sons" with the family name, IJohn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2. Have the family likeness, Col 3:10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
3. Have the family nature, IIPeter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
4. Have the family affection, 1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

We are not only in Christ as Christians but are in the family, HOW......through

JUSTIFICATION! Justification is the forgiveness of sin and the removal of its guilt and punishment. God acquits the ungodly who believe in Christ and declairs them JUST! This is not to declare them innocent. That would be a judgement contary to truth. To be justified means that the demands of the law have been satisfied with regard to them, and that the believer is free from its condemnation. Rom.4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
No "works" Salvation, No License to sin, No loss of Salvation and no more confusion like on this board!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Shiloh: No "works" Salvation, No License to sin, No loss of Salvation and no more confusion like on this board

HP: The title of this section is “Other Denominations” and is found in the ‘Debate’ section. I am sure this section is not for everyone. There are plenty of ‘us four and no more’ boards if that is what makes one feel comfortable and secure. Freedom to honestly express one ideas is a rarity for sure, but a needed one within the diverse body of Christ. If you feel threatened by it, why frequent it? I believe any mature Christian could find an honest need for such a thread. If it is truth, you cannot stop it, and if it is error, will not the God of the Universe do right?

Be content with sharing what you feel is within the confines of truth and pray that God will open the hearts and minds of others.

PS: There is NNE on this board that I know of sharing a works based salvation. That is a paper duck you and others put up for your target practice to have something to shoot at.

 

[DQuixote]

My, my, my.

What you do share on these boards is mixing scripture intended for a Jewish audience (Jesus, Peter the spokespersons) with that intended for Gentiles (Paul the spokesperson). Thank God for classic dispensationalism, which rightly divides the word of truth. It would set a lot of you free, end these endless debates, their premises founded in error, their conclusions therefore much ado about nothing.

In another vein, Peter & Paul spoke to Jews about the importance of obeying those in authority over them because, folks, the Jews were under the heel of Rome. The penalty for disobedience was severe punishment, even death. It was logical that the Jews should obey those in authority. It was logical that they give unto Caesar what was his. If they didn't, down the tubes. The writers weren't going to talk to them about how to do it in a democratic republic.

We are not, Christian, under the heel of Rome. We are under God's authority. As his subjects we have the authority, the power, to overcome the sin in our lives. We often resort to sin, obviously, rather than to his authority. As those who are under his authority, in a democratic republic, we are the government. We're the guys who tell the guys (and gals) in D.C. what to do. At least that's the way it is supposed to be. Sadly, Christians have a horrible track record when it comes to voting, contacting their legislators, helping choose candidates. :tear: As someone has rightly said, "We are they who are in authority," thank you very much, we just fail to exercise it.

As to sinless perfection: We will all walk in sin until the day we are called home. Our status before God, in this life, however, is not sinner, it is saved, His righteousness imparted to us. When he looks at me he does not see sin, he sees the sacrifice of Jesus. That is sinless perfection before God, even though we continue to sin in this life. Obviously, one who is born again should, must resist the temptation to sin. Those who are born again will experience the quickening of the Holy Spirit should they decide to sin, decide to lie, decide to do wrong. The guilty conscience is the result of sin, the natural counterpart of grieving the Holy Spirit.

All scripture is God-breathed and spiritually discerned. Who are we mere mortals to try to intellectualize that in endless debate? :saint:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DQuixote: Who are we mere mortals to try to intellectualize that in endless debate?

HP: I suppose it is the very thought of 'simply another windmill to fight' that must be the driving motivation for you to participate in such debate. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Brother Bob]

As to sinless perfection: We will all walk in sin until the day we are called home. Our status before God, in this life, however, is not sinner, it is saved, His righteousness imparted to us. When he looks at me he does not see sin, he sees the sacrifice of Jesus. That is sinless perfection before God, even though we continue to sin in this life. Obviously, one who is born again should, must resist the temptation to sin. Those who are born again will experience the quickening of the Holy Spirit should they decide to sin, decide to lie, decide to do wrong. The guilty conscience is the result of sin, the natural counterpart of grieving the Holy Spirit.

Nice skip over the top and not get into the nitty gritty. Some of us have to get our hands dirty.

 

[Shiloh]

PS: There is NNE on this board that I know of sharing a works based salvation. That is a paper duck you and others put up for your target practice to have something to shoot at. HP

Did you hit your head? No works Salvation being promoted on this board? Can't you read?

 

[Dustin]

PS: There is NNE on this board that I know of sharing a works based salvation. That is a paper duck you and others put up for your target practice to have something to shoot at. HP

Did you hit your head? No works Salvation being promoted on this board? Can't you read?

True enough, it's tossed around here rather recklessly sometimes. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that no one would admit to promoting a works based salvation. I think that's accurate.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin