Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Your personal remarks are clearly noted, but you are making a completely false accusation my friend. Conditions of salvation do not in any way equate to salvation by works.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Entire Sanctification/Sinless Perfection
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
HP: Your personal remarks are clearly noted, but you are making a completely false accusation my friend. Conditions of salvation do not in any way equate to salvation by works.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
A man goes to prison for life, being justly condemned and sentenced by a judge for a specific crime. Can such an individual ‘merit’ a pardon by the performance of good works while in prison? Can such a criminal perform good works to such a degree that the governor is forced to grant this man a pardon based merely on the ‘merit’ of the performance of such good works? Absolutely not. Just the same can the governor, if he so pleases, pardon such a criminal? Of course he can. Still, there is something the criminal MUST do, there is an attitude that MUST be reflected by the criminal to receive a pardon IF the governor is indeed fair and just, and attitudes are tied inseparably to intents of the heart, this very initial intent being none other than a ‘work’ in one sense of the word. The governor MUST witness from the criminal a repentant attitude and a change of heart towards his former criminal behavior if the governor is even to consider such a pardon for the criminal.
What kind of governor would pardon a criminal from prison who had not exhibited true remorse for his crimes? Would not the governor have to be satisfied in his or her mind that IF they pardoned such a criminal that they would not return to commit the same crime or one of like heinous behavior upon society again and that such a criminal possessed and exhibited a true change of heart and attitude towards their former behavior? There are indeed certain conditions that the criminal must meet, works that such a one must of necessity do in order to have the opportunity for a pardon if such an opportunity is offered. These works on the part of the prisoner are in no way meritorious in nature, and in no way force the governor to grant such a one a pardon on their account. Just the same, there are definite conditions or works one must do in order for the governor to consider the pardon. These works are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’ It can properly be stated that one is not pardoned due to any works (in one sense of the word ‘works’ in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’) of the prisoner, but just the same it can be said ‘without works’ (in another sense of the word, that being in the sense of ‘not without which’) one will never see the opportunity to receive a pardon.
Can you see how that works can be thought of as necessary for a pardon, or in the sense of “not without which,” yet at the same time no amount of works can be thought of as “that for the sake of” or forcing the governor to pardon the criminal on the account of works performed by the criminal?
Let me ask the reader. Did the prisoner in any way 'work for his release' or do anything meritorious in order to receive his pardon? Was his pardon a 'works based pardon' due to the fact that there was indeed conditions he must meet in order to receive a pardon?
What kind of governor would pardon a criminal from prison who had not exhibited true remorse for his crimes? Would not the governor have to be satisfied in his or her mind that IF they pardoned such a criminal that they would not return to commit the same crime or one of like heinous behavior upon society again and that such a criminal possessed and exhibited a true change of heart and attitude towards their former behavior? There are indeed certain conditions that the criminal must meet, works that such a one must of necessity do in order to have the opportunity for a pardon if such an opportunity is offered. These works on the part of the prisoner are in no way meritorious in nature, and in no way force the governor to grant such a one a pardon on their account. Just the same, there are definite conditions or works one must do in order for the governor to consider the pardon. These works are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’ It can properly be stated that one is not pardoned due to any works (in one sense of the word ‘works’ in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’) of the prisoner, but just the same it can be said ‘without works’ (in another sense of the word, that being in the sense of ‘not without which’) one will never see the opportunity to receive a pardon.
Can you see how that works can be thought of as necessary for a pardon, or in the sense of “not without which,” yet at the same time no amount of works can be thought of as “that for the sake of” or forcing the governor to pardon the criminal on the account of works performed by the criminal?
Let me ask the reader. Did the prisoner in any way 'work for his release' or do anything meritorious in order to receive his pardon? Was his pardon a 'works based pardon' due to the fact that there was indeed conditions he must meet in order to receive a pardon?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Yes, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, others will as well. “For we wrestle not….”
The ONLY conditions for salvation is Faith or which repentence is a by product. You can't exactly repent if you don't believe you need to.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Any thing a person will add to faith FOR salvation is works because you have to in some way prove yourself worthy. When in fact you weren't, aren't, and never will be. Christ is the only worthy sacrifice for your sins and He imparts that to those who believe. This is why it is not our righteousness but His righteousness in us.
And is why scripture states "it is because of grace you ARE savED THROUGH faith, and NOT of yourselves but is a GIFT. NOT of works
Works are anything you do that can be added or taken away from salvation. Either Christ Jesus was suffient in His atoning work and PAID the FULL penalty of OUR sins or He was insuffient in what He did and we have to do... to help make up the gap of our salvation with our own righteousness. After all it will work, right??
NE on this board that I know of sharing a works based salvation. That is a paper duck you and others put up for your target practice to have something to shoot at. Allan said:
honestly, the Bible is full of conditions, in both the old testament as well as the new... I have a hard time understanding why that is so difficult for some to see.
Like this simple condition, for instance,
Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
or this,
Romans 8:
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
but it seems like in every since instance, I notice, people will just come up with this stuff like "oh that doesnt apply to salvation" or "oh thats just for the Jews" or some excuse like that, I mean seriously it gets ridiculous and I dont know that they must sit up for quite awhile dreaming up these excuses.
Its like as if they read the verses about faith and then they think that just nulls out everything else... instead of harmonizing the scriptures.
Oh I forgot the other one... "well its talking about the kingdom and not about heaven"...
Last edited by a moderator:
HP uses the analogy of being sentenced to prison for life as Salvation not by works which is stupid. A "life" sentence in prison is 20 years and I don't care if you spit in the wardens face every day for 20 years when your sentence is up you are out!
Claudia agrees with him that Salvation is not by works.
I have written the very thing, because "works" are being preached on here every day. The SDA is a WORKS Religion!
Ed.............well, you know!
Claudia agrees with him that Salvation is not by works.
I have written the very thing, because "works" are being preached on here every day. The SDA is a WORKS Religion!
Ed.............well, you know!
Shiloh said:
Thats because you seem to be incapable of listening to and of comprehending what is really being said. You do that a whole lot. and yep, you are going to have to actually get off of your dead.... faith ....and actually DO something. wow what a concept!
If you choose to just close your eyes to verses like these and hope they will just go away because you dont look at them, hey, be my guest! and if you want to say James was promoting a "works religion" then hey, count me in!
James 2
14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16: And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Last edited by a moderator:
Brother Bob
New Member
Well, we have two men that live close to each other.
Both of them are unsaved.
One of them prays to God to forgive him and said for I am a sinner.
The other one brags on how much he has done for the poor and paid his tithes and everything.
Well, according to those on this board, both of them had works but guess which one the Lord justified?
The one with a praying heart.
Both of these men knew there was a God, and both were praying to God. The difference is one of them had a repentant heart.
You go so far with this "no works" thing that you want to take prayer and repentance out of it and without prayer and repentance, "good luck", but luck don't get you to Heaven.! Except ye repent, you shall die in your sins. Why would anyone have a fault in that. Do they want to go to Heaven and keep on sinning? Someone tell me Why, there must be a Why?
Seems to me you have to have faith and ask God to forgive you of your sins. Call it works all you want but If a man parties all his life with rioteous living, he will die and go to a devil's hell.
Both of them are unsaved.
One of them prays to God to forgive him and said for I am a sinner.
The other one brags on how much he has done for the poor and paid his tithes and everything.
Well, according to those on this board, both of them had works but guess which one the Lord justified?
The one with a praying heart.
Both of these men knew there was a God, and both were praying to God. The difference is one of them had a repentant heart.
You go so far with this "no works" thing that you want to take prayer and repentance out of it and without prayer and repentance, "good luck", but luck don't get you to Heaven.! Except ye repent, you shall die in your sins. Why would anyone have a fault in that. Do they want to go to Heaven and keep on sinning? Someone tell me Why, there must be a Why?
Seems to me you have to have faith and ask God to forgive you of your sins. Call it works all you want but If a man parties all his life with rioteous living, he will die and go to a devil's hell.
Last edited by a moderator:
Shiloh,
This is for you,
Ti:1:16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
wow what a concept! this is talking about people who CLAIM to be Christians... they "profess" to know God it says... but they are LYING. Get it??? whats this based on? their WORKS, read it.
THEN go tell James and Titus both that they are "promoting a works religion!"
oh Wahhhhhhhhhhh!!
*sorry but this really gets old after awhile
Claudia
This is for you,
Ti:1:16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
wow what a concept! this is talking about people who CLAIM to be Christians... they "profess" to know God it says... but they are LYING. Get it??? whats this based on? their WORKS, read it.
THEN go tell James and Titus both that they are "promoting a works religion!"
oh Wahhhhhhhhhhh!!
*sorry but this really gets old after awhile
Claudia
Last edited by a moderator:
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
I have NEVER preached a "works" Salvation, quite the contrary as you Scripture Twisters well know.
Claudia, IF you are not (which your writings say otherwise) "preaching" a works salvation ......you are the FIRST JW or SDA's that doesn't!
I have NEVER preached a "works" Salvation, quite the contrary as you Scripture Twisters well know.
Claudia, IF you are not (which your writings say otherwise) "preaching" a works salvation ......you are the FIRST JW or SDA's that doesn't!
The Bible has absolutly NO contradictions in it. Your theology shows forth contradirctions but the bible is with flaw concerning contradictions. If you see contradictions in the scripture it is because your beliefs are wrong. False teaching (in any stripe) will always show themselves when set against the scriptures. You have the scriptures bearing witness your beliefs are not true because you can not keep the whole of scripture in harmony with your beliefs. A contradiction is a lie on one side or another and scriptures do not lie.Claudia_T said:
I see no contradiction with these two passage because they have nothing to do with each other, therefor there is no contradiction.
faith nullifies nothing. Works will not get you any closer to heaven than the very heart of hell. If you could do anything to add to the REDEEMING work of the Cross then you are greater than Christ Himself. Our works are the EVEDENCE of our salvation NOT part of the means.
We don't keep the law to be or maintain salvation - the scriptures speak consistantly that against that. "for by the LAW shall NO flesh be Justified" But we find that by Christ we are justified by faith. Christ NEVER said to keep the Law of the OT to be saved. He said we must believe in Him and the WORKS that He did. This 'works' He did we for our benifit for our salvation. He will change our very nature that we will no longer desire to live like the world but unto Him that died for me 2 Cor 5:15, Col 2:20. But still not according to the physical law but the spiritual things thereof that bear witness we are His children.
Last edited by a moderator:
Their works are the evedence OF their salvation NOT the CAUSE.Claudia_T said:
As Children of God we will live for Christ. For those who only profess Him as Lord, they still live for themselves...being disobedient, worldy, lustful...and they do all of these all the time therefore they are abominable or better an abomination. Every true that bears forth good fruit (works) is known for what it produces - Godliness and goodness
Every tree that brings forth bad or corrupt fruit (works) in known for what it produces - ungodliness and evil.
Read you bible Claudia in context without pretext and you will loose those inept 'proof texts'.
They ONLY "work" that is in conjust with salvation is the very work that is the CAUSE of salvation. The FINISHED 'work' of Jesus Christ. If the work is finished there is nothing to add to to it, period!!
Your afore mentioned proof text concerning 'works' being apart of salvation.
Faith without works is dead... You really ought to read that chapter better the whole book.
If you have faith and no works - then you have a dead faith. - a faith with no life is one illistrated as one without Christ. It is for THIS reason the writter states - I will show you MY FAITH by my works. Again, works are the evedence OF salvation not the causation or addition to it.
Last edited by a moderator:
LOL, My bad... I just got off of another thread on anther board speaking of that.Claudia_T said:
I confess it, I'm the moron here.
Sorry Claudia for that one, you got the over spill. Forgive me concerning the contradictions part??
The other half of the post I maintain though it truth it was part of the former but I recant my statement of you holding the bible has contradictions.
Those two verse you gave however still have nothing to do with each other.
And it is speaking of the Kingdom and living during the physical 1000 year reign verses the the over concerning spiritual SALVATION.
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't participate in debate. I point out how utterly bogus the concept of debate is, when a Christian is aware that all scripture is God-breathed and spiritually discerned. If we all came to that knowledge, debate would cease, denominations would vanish, the church would be one. No hierarchy, no pope, no rules, no robes, no intellectual pursuits ~~ just rejoicing in his everlasting love while sharing it with others. The windmill is the symbol of Christianity's failure to recognize this simple truth. It spins and spins and spins denominational disputes. Don Quixote looks at it, trys to inform it, sees the futility of it all, but when the Holy Spirit leads, seeks once again to point out the futility of debate.
:jesus: