Entire Sanctification

[plain_n_simple]

What is the Baptist perspective on Entire Sanctification, or the Holiness Movement? I've done a bit of study and am finding it to be unbiblical. It is a John Wesley teaching that gained speed from about 1880 to around 1920. Church of God, Church of the Nazarene, and various Methodists claim it, but the Holiness emphasis has dwindled greatly. The idea is a second work of grace enabling a believer to walk sin free in perfection. Thoughts?

 

[saturneptune]

What is the Baptist perspective on Entire Sanctification, or the Holiness Movement? I've done a bit of study and am finding it to be unbiblical. It is a John Wesley teaching that gained speed from about 1880 to around 1920. Church of God, Church of the Nazarene, and various Methodists claim it, but the Holiness emphasis has dwindled greatly. The idea is a second work of grace enabling a believer to walk sin free in perfection. Thoughts?

First of all, the term entire sanctification is not in Scripture. There is no mention of "second work of grace." No where is Scripture does it say or imply we will be living daily sinless perfection by the time we leave this earth. Sanctification is a work of God (Holy Spirit) from the time of salvation till the time of death making us more like Jesus Christ. It is done in a method and a rate as a sovereign work of the Lord.

This sounds like the fruitcakes from the Pentecostal, charasmatic, Holiness, and SDA threads down in Other Denominations as of late.

Although we are new creatures in Christ, the old sin nature is still there. Romans 7 and 8 describe the battle quite clearly. The struggle that rages within each Christian is the surest sign of genuine salvation.

To line up with these nut cases, Romans 8:28 would say
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31. He had to do this twice because He did not get it right the first time.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Thanks saturneptune, I appreciate your input.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

First of all, the term entire sanctification is not in Scripture. There is no mention of "second work of grace." No where is Scripture does it say or imply we will be living daily sinless perfection by the time we leave this earth. Sanctification is a work of God (Holy Spirit) from the time of salvation till the time of death making us more like Jesus Christ. It is done in a method and a rate as a sovereign work of the Lord.

This sounds like the fruitcakes from the Pentecostal, charasmatic, Holiness, and SDA threads down in Other Denominations as of late.

Although we are new creatures in Christ, the old sin nature is still there. Romans 7 and 8 describe the battle quite clearly. The struggle that rages within each Christian is the surest sign of genuine salvation.

To line up with these nut cases, Romans 8:28 would say
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31. He had to do this twice because He did not get it right the first time.

I agree with your perspective, for the most part.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

What is the Baptist perspective on Entire Sanctification, or the Holiness Movement? I've done a bit of study and am finding it to be unbiblical. It is a John Wesley teaching that gained speed from about 1880 to around 1920. Church of God, Church of the Nazarene, and various Methodists claim it, but the Holiness emphasis has dwindled greatly. The idea is a second work of grace enabling a believer to walk sin free in perfection. Thoughts?

There is a difference in the main Methodist bodies' understanding of this and the Holiness bodies. That's why the latter separated from the former in the early 20th century.

 

[Yeshua1]

First of all, the term entire sanctification is not in Scripture. There is no mention of "second work of grace." No where is Scripture does it say or imply we will be living daily sinless perfection by the time we leave this earth. Sanctification is a work of God (Holy Spirit) from the time of salvation till the time of death making us more like Jesus Christ. It is done in a method and a rate as a sovereign work of the Lord.

This sounds like the fruitcakes from the Pentecostal, charasmatic, Holiness, and SDA threads down in Other Denominations as of late.

Although we are new creatures in Christ, the old sin nature is still there. Romans 7 and 8 describe the battle quite clearly. The struggle that rages within each Christian is the surest sign of genuine salvation.

To line up with these nut cases, Romans 8:28 would say
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31. He had to do this twice because He did not get it right the first time.

interesting question would be on how those who insist there is a baptism of the HG after salvation differ from those who have a second act of grace, are both emphasising that they hold to a distinct work of the HS after salvation that grants extra power to live holy, or to witnes boldly etc?

 

[plain_n_simple]

interesting question would be on how those who insist there is a baptism of the HG after salvation differ from those who have a second act of grace, are both emphasising that they hold to a distinct work of the HS after salvation that grants extra power to live holy, or to witnes boldly etc?

That difference would be the purpose. The Holiness purpose is primarily for self. The biblical purpose of the 2nd baptism that Paul demonstrates in Acts, is for the benefit of others.

 

[Yeshua1]

That difference would be the purpose. The Holiness purpose is primarily for self. The biblical purpose of the 2nd baptism that Paul demonstrates in Acts, is for the benefit of others.

the holiness claim that its for the purpose to become as chrsit in thoughts and deeds, so how would that be 'selfish?"

good news that there are NO scriptures to support either view!

 

[plain_n_simple]

the holiness claim that its for the purpose to become as chrsit in thoughts and deeds, so how would that be 'selfish?"

good news that there are NO scriptures to support either view!

You would not acknowledge the scriptures because you are in unbelief. Let's stick to the OP please.

 

[Yeshua1]

You would not acknowledge the scriptures because you are in unbelief. Let's stick to the OP please.

not in unbelief, but in proper understanding of the scriptures!

And the process of the Westlyn view was for one to finally obtain 'sinless perfection"in that while not sinless, all deeds/actions were to be motivated out from the Love of God, so always right motives!

 

[Revmitchell]

not in unbelief, but in proper understanding of the scriptures!

It is not possible to have a discussion with someone who works to shut down discussion by accusing others who disagree with them of "You would not acknowledge the scriptures because you are in unbelief." See they have no support for their argument so that result to statements like that which are not lucid. We seem to be having a number of those type of folks become very active on the board lately.

 

[plain_n_simple]

It is not possible to have a discussion with someone who works to shut down discussion by accusing others who disagree with them of "You would not acknowledge the scriptures because you are in unbelief." See they have no support for their argument so that result to statements like that which are not lucid. We seem to be having a number of those type of folks become very active on the board lately.

Or, because they do not acknowledge scripture.:thumbs:

 

[Scarlett O.]

plain n simple,

It's all in how you define that pesky word, "perfect" that pops up in the Bible over and over. Some define it as sinlessness. Those will preach/teach sinless perfection on this earth.

Others look at the etymology of the word and find it means complete or finished or mature - NOT perfect as in perfectionism. Those will preach/teach a sanctification process that should be evidenced by mature spiritual growth.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Thank you Scarlett

 

[Yeshua1]

plain n simple,

It's all in how you define that pesky word, "perfect" that pops up in the Bible over and over. Some define it as sinlessness. Those will preach/teach sinless perfection on this earth.

Others look at the etymology of the word and find it means complete or finished or mature - NOT perfect as in perfectionism. Those will preach/teach a sanctification process that should be evidenced by mature spiritual growth.

also, note that when jesus said that we are to be perfect JUST as trhe father in heaven is, the
context was in Him describing what true and false judging is all about!

So judge correctly, with right intent, seems to be that emphasis there!

 

[Yeshua1]

Or, because they do not acknowledge scripture.:thumbs:

We acknowledge the historical understandings of the chrsitian faith for over 1800 years, but NOT those whose teaching comes from the occult and flase religions!