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Featured Ephesians 1 Clarified

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by utilyan, Aug 25, 2020.

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  1. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "Because I was chosen and adopted before the foundation of the world."

    ^Notice the part that is always left out....... "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world"

    in him.

    Why is IN JESUS LEFT OUT?

    Because in their head being CHOSEN ELECT is what saves.

    Ephesians 2

    11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    YOU WERE NOT IN CHRIST.

    You think you were IN , OUT , back in again? No. When did you get OUT of Christ then?

    You had no promise, no hope, NO GOD, no foundation no nothing, there was no covenant for you, EXCLUDED, SEPARATE from Christ.

    It is until after "who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ"


    "that we should be holy and blameless before him"

    That doesn't say you are saved.

    God has chosen for everyone no to sin, Doesn't mean no one will sin.


    CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT.

    The problem is your starting with presumed philosophy and reading it into the text.

    From the very beginning of Ephesians 1 its addressed to those who are already born again, "saved"

    1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


    So we see SAVED PEOPLE who are now IN CHRIST have been chosen for what? -->that we should be holy and blameless before him.



    Whenever you see the word CHOSEN or ELECT you need to ask FOR WHAT and not presume its for salvation every time.
     
    #1 utilyan, Aug 25, 2020
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  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Of course we are chosen in Christ. We would not be made righteous were we not in Christ.
    Being in Christ does not negate God choosing to adopt us and place us in Christ.

    Why would anyone attempt to claim that they did something that caused God to do something? God is Sovereign. God ordains and chooses. God makes us alive with Christ.
     
    #2 AustinC, Aug 25, 2020
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  3. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    The point is Ephesians 1 has nothing to do about being elect on to salvation. And that those IN CHRIST were not always since before the foundation in Christ , As Ephesians 2 says.
     
    #3 utilyan, Aug 25, 2020
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  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Also v 5 is saved people being predestined AFTER becoming IN HIM are then predestined to the ADOPTION as defined in Romans 8.23 as the redemption of the body .
     
    #4 Barry Johnson, Aug 26, 2020
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  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Were not Adooted at conversion . Rom 8 .23 . We recieve the Spirt OF adoption till then .
     
    #5 Barry Johnson, Aug 26, 2020
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  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Election and Predestination are not the same also.
    Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

    Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

    Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

    Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)
     
    #6 Barry Johnson, Aug 26, 2020
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  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

    Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

    Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

    Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)
     
    #7 Barry Johnson, Aug 26, 2020
  8. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    That doesn’t make any sense.
     
    #8 Sai, Aug 26, 2020
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  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    How so ?
     
    #9 Barry Johnson, Aug 26, 2020
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You are entirely missing the point of Paul's letter to the Ephesians.

    Adoption, election, predestination, chosen are all referring to we believers having been made children of God, in Christ.

    You are trying to create a dichotomy that is not presented by Paul.
     
    #10 AustinC, Aug 26, 2020
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  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    We have gone over this ad nauseum. You are entirely wrong in your understanding of Romans 8 in regards to election and adoption. Therefore, you screw it up in Ephesians 1 as well.
     
    #11 AustinC, Aug 26, 2020
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  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. Your attempt to dichotomize God's work in the believer causes you to misunderstand what God has done for His children.
     
    #12 AustinC, Aug 26, 2020
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  13. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption to wit, the redemption of our body.
    Only an ideological possessd mind could possibly read this and ignore the fact that we are not Adopted at conversion .
     
    #13 Barry Johnson, Aug 26, 2020
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  14. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    You haven't the first idea ,what God has done in salvation , not a clue . The longer you are in Calvinism the further away you are from understanding the bible . The philosophy? ok , you guys have it down perfect . The system is almost perfect and it takes great minds like Edwards, Pink , Calvin , Beza, sproul, piper , White , Mouler, Owen , Grudem, to weild it about .
    This is the deception and its how the lesser mortals get sucked into it . Who doesn't what all the answers pre packaged with neat bow on top ?
     
    #14 Barry Johnson, Aug 26, 2020
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  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    As usual, you neglect the full scripture to create an interpretation that is skewed. We have gone over this. You are wrong.
     
    #15 AustinC, Aug 26, 2020
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  16. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Then what else does this mean ?
    Rom 8 .23 ( just before the ' Golden Chain of redemption ' so called )
    23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
     
    #16 Barry Johnson, Aug 26, 2020
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I read what God clearly says. That's good enough for me. What John Calvin had to say, I don't even know. Do you wish to quote him for us?
     
    #17 AustinC, Aug 26, 2020
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  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    About what ?
     
    #18 Barry Johnson, Aug 26, 2020
  19. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    I’ll have to read the Calvinist responses on this thread to answer. It just appears to be an attempt to get around the obvious that God predestined by choice whom he wanted to be saved.
     
    #19 Sai, Aug 26, 2020
  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing that says that ,at all . No verse ever says Predestined to be saved or Elected to be saved . You would think with all the fuss it would actually say that, but it actually doesn't.
     
    #20 Barry Johnson, Aug 26, 2020
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