I do not see the distinction between Israel and the Church, which it would take to make Dispensationalism, and thereby Premil, Pretrib work.
Some of the reasoning I posted here in debate quite a while back:
I would submit that “Israel” refers to the faithful. I would further suggest that the idea of the “Jew” in the NT and OT be abandoned because it is only applicable to (lets see if I got this right) “the southern tribes of Judah and Benjamin (with the Levites), it excludes all the prophets to the northern kingdom such as Samuel, Elijah, and so on.”
Back to the better term “Israel” which I contend means “faithful” throughout history as the secular ethnic application is different than the redemptive context in scripture. John the Baptist rebuffed the Pharisees in this matter as to who their father was:
(Mat 3:9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
(Mat 3:10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Israel refers to faithful believers only, Jew and Gentile alike in one body in Christ. (Gal 3:28-29) Further, how can all of Israel be saved? (Rom 11:26) How do dispensationalists hold to that truth? And how many of the Jews of the tribulation will be saved???
I think you would agree that all were saved by faith both in the NT and the OT. What makes the (only) difference is the ministry that is written in our hearts; God required essentially the same thing through faith: (Mic 6:8) He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
The OC - ministry of death, the NC- ministry of life, same salvation-main difference is here is the OT saints didn’t know the name of their redeemer. Seems dispys will argue OT saints didn’t have the indwelling of the HS…guess that’s another subject.
Israel (the faithful) IS the church. The word “Jews” would not even extend to the saints from creation. The “seed of Abraham” was Paul’s term for ALL the saved and that term is consistent and applies from the OT also and is unrelated to the New and Old covenants.
#2
The term “Israel” unless referring to it in the meaning of a pedigreed “Jew” has no relationship to the meaning of the “seed of Abraham” as I contend Israel in this reference refers to a believer with faith, both NC and OC.
The “seed of Abraham” is Paul’s term for ALL the saved:
(Gal 3:16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
(Gal 3:17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(Gal 3:18) For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
(Gal 3:19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(Gal 3:20) Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
(Gal 3:21) Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(Gal 3:22) But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(Gal 3:23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(Gal 3:24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(Gal 3:25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(Gal 3:26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(Gal 3:28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The terminology (seed of Abraham) is consistent in the meaning both NC and OC:
(Psa 105:6) O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
Note John the Baptist’s reply to the Pharisees who thought differently:
(Mat 3:9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
The term “Israel” can not be separated in the meaning of “seed of Abraham” ALL the saved by faith, to mean only the OT people. It is unrelated to the meaning of being “Jew” in the sense of faith salvation.
The "seeds of Abraham" are brought together in the promise:
(Rom 11:16) For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
(Rom 11:17) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(Rom 11:18) Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
(Rom 11:19) Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
(Rom 11:20) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
(Rom 11:21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
(Rom 11:22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(Rom 11:23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
(Rom 11:24) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
(Rom 11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
(Rom 11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Rom 11:27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
In relationship to salvation meaning by faith alone there is no fundamental difference between the NT and the OT; the fundamental difference between the New Covenant and the Old is it is written in our hearts.
(Jer 31:33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Mic 6:8) He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
#3
Hope this is more clear of what I submitted as a reason why there is no consistent distinction between Israel and the Church, but contrary wise Israel is the church.
Israel used in the definition of a pedigreed Jew can be shown in scripture to be unrelated to the covenants in both the OT and the NT.
In the Bible God gave the name Israel to Jacob for a specific purpose and the significance of the meaning of that name cannot be overlooked. The name is evidence of a line of “faith” already established in Abraham not of a father to son relationship of “pedigree”.
(Heb 11:9) By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
These guys were fellow heirs of the promise with Abraham by faith, not of blood. It seems more than significant that the promise was NOT that Abraham was to be the father of a bloodline but of a nation.
The “seeds of Abraham” are what I spelled out in the preceding posts of whom Paul said they applied to in the NT (ALL the saved), who John the Baptist said they didn’t apply to (BLOOD), and a look into the Word as to who was included in the “seeds of Abraham”.
