Eternal Security, essential or nonessential?

[The Biblicist]

By "eternal security" is meant that "all" who are GENUINELY born again children of God (not mere professors) never become unborn children of God and none that are given to the Son by the Father fail to come to Christ or fail to be ultimately resurrected unto life by Christ.

We do not claim they persevere in saving faith because there are several mitigating factors that can prevent true children of God continuing in saving faith (physical and medical conditions - alzheimers, dementia, etc.). False professors are maninfested by a variety of factors (false gospel teaching, repudiation of Christ - 1 Jn. 2:19; lack of chastening for sin - Heb. 12:5-10; absence of those things that accompany salvation - Heb. 6:9).

The denial of eternal security is the affirmation of justification by works because only justification by works can be the doctrinal basis for denial of eternal security. By "works" I mean human sourced decisions and actions.

The doctrine of justification by works is "another gospel" and therefore the denial of eternal security is the affirmation of "another gospel."

 

[drfuss]

By "eternal security" is meant that "all" who are GENUINELY born again children of God (not mere professors) never become unborn children of God and none that are given to the Son by the Father fail to come to Christ or fail to be ultimately resurrected unto life by Christ.

We do not claim they persevere in saving faith because there are several mitigating factors that can prevent true children of God continuing in saving faith (physical and medical conditions - alzheimers, dementia, etc.). False professors are maninfested by a variety of factors (false gospel teaching, repudiation of Christ - 1 Jn. 2:19; lack of chastening for sin - Heb. 12:5-10; absence of those things that accompany salvation - Heb. 6:9).

The denial of eternal security is the affirmation of justification by works because only justification by works can be the doctrinal basis for denial of eternal security. By "works" I mean human sourced decisions and actions.

The doctrine of justification by works is "another gospel" and therefore the denial of eternal security is the affirmation of "another gospel."

Christians who do not believe in a doctrine of eternal security do not believe they are justified by works. Many Baptists are incorrect on this. I suggest you go to non-eternal security denominations websites and study their statements of faith.

 

[The Biblicist]

Christians who do not believe in a doctrine of eternal security do not believe they are justified by works. Many Baptists are incorrect on this. I suggest you go to non-eternal security denominations websites and study their statements of faith.

I have been studying other denominations articles of faith on this point for over 30 years (Assembly of God, Methodists, Lutherans, etc.). I would challenge your understanding of their articles and the doctrine of eternal security.

Those who typically reject eternal security claim that final loss of salvation is not by justification by works but by decision of the will. This is a fundemental misunderstanding of the nature of "works" as defined by Christ in Matthew 15. Works are not merely good or bad EXTERNAL ACTIONS but begin with INTERNAL thoughts and decisions. The EXTERNAL actions are merely the evidential consquences of the INTERNAL actions. Do you realize this?

Hence, Biblically speaking "justification by works" means HEART ACTIONS that may or may not be manifested by MOUTH and BODY actions.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

By "eternal security" is meant that "all" who are GENUINELY born again children of God (not mere professors) never become unborn children of God and none that are given to the Son by the Father fail to come to Christ or fail to be ultimately resurrected unto life by Christ.

We do not claim they persevere in saving faith because there are several mitigating factors that can prevent true children of God continuing in saving faith (physical and medical conditions - alzheimers, dementia, etc.). False professors are maninfested by a variety of factors (false gospel teaching, repudiation of Christ - 1 Jn. 2:19; lack of chastening for sin - Heb. 12:5-10; absence of those things that accompany salvation - Heb. 6:9).

The denial of eternal security is the affirmation of justification by works because only justification by works can be the doctrinal basis for denial of eternal security. By "works" I mean human sourced decisions and actions.

The doctrine of justification by works is "another gospel" and therefore the denial of eternal security is the affirmation of "another gospel."

That is a lie.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is a lie.

It is easy to make an accusation, it is quite another thing to demonstrate it. I see no demonstration just accusation.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is a lie.

The Bible offers only two possible options while condemning one as false:

1. Justification by works - FALSE

2. Justification by faith wthout works - TRUE

Faith has its object the Person and work of Jesus Christ or what Christ did FOR the sinner.

Works is the response of the sinner and what they do FOR Christ.

Works include the INTERNAL OPERATIONS of the heart - thoughts and intent as well as the manifestations in words and actions - Mt. 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

All evil actions described above originate from "evil thoughts" originating in an evil heart because the heart is known by its fruit. If the thoughts are evil it is because the heart is evil.

However, IF a truley born again person could fall away from salvation would the source be found in that person or in God? Obviously, it must be found in that person and in an evil heart and thus in his works. Hence, your view is ultimately justification or damnation by works.

I got a news flash for you. The New birth is the giving of a NEW HEART (Ezek. 36:26) that has the law of God written in its nature (2 Cor. 3:3; Rom. 7:22) so that it always has pure intentions to obey God (Ezek. 36:27) while the old heart never has and never will love God or obey God (Rom. 7:18-25) either before or after regeneration. While faith originates and is sustained within the new "heart" (Rom. 10:8-10).

 

[Michael Wrenn]

It is easy to make an accusation, it is quite another thing to demonstrate it. I see no demonstration just accusation.

Hmmm... That's all I see from you.

You have accused the Methodists, Nazarenes, Pentecostals, General Baptists, Free Will Baptists, and others of believing in justification by works and another gospel. Not only is that a lie, it is accusing these of not being Christians.

 

[drfuss]

I have been studying other denominations articles of faith on this point for over 30 years (Assembly of God, Methodists, Lutherans, etc.). I would challenge your understanding of their articles and the doctrine of eternal security.

Those who typically reject eternal security claim that final loss of salvation is not by justification by works but by decision of the will. This is a fundemental misunderstanding of the nature of "works" as defined by Christ in Matthew 15. Works are not merely good or bad EXTERNAL ACTIONS but begin with INTERNAL thoughts and decisions. The EXTERNAL actions are merely the evidential consquences of the INTERNAL actions. Do you realize this?

Hence, Biblically speaking "justification by works" means HEART ACTIONS that may or may not be manifested by MOUTH and BODY actions.

Since you can change the definition of works to fit your position, there is nothing to be gained in furthering this discussion. Who knows what other definitions you will change?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The Bible offers only two possible options while condemning one as false:

1. Justification by works - FALSE

2. Justification by faith wthout works - TRUE

Faith has its object the Person and work of Jesus Christ or what Christ did FOR the sinner.

Works is the response of the sinner and what they do FOR Christ.

Works include the INTERNAL OPERATIONS of the heart - thoughts and intent as well as the manifestations in words and actions - Mt. 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

All evil actions described above originate from "evil thoughts" originating in an evil heart because the heart is known by its fruit. If the thoughts are evil it is because the heart is evil.

However, IF a truley born again person could fall away from salvation would the source be found in that person or in God? Obviously, it must be found in that person and in an evil heart and thus in his works. Hence, your view is ultimately justification or damnation by works.

I got a news flash for you. The New birth is the giving of a NEW HEART (Ezek. 36:26) that has the law of God written in its nature (2 Cor. 3:3; Rom. 7:22) so that it always has pure intentions to obey God (Ezek. 36:27) while the old heart never has and never will love God or obey God (Rom. 7:18-25) either before or after regeneration. While faith originates and is sustained within the new "heart" (Rom. 10:8-10).

And here's a newsflash for you: What you have said is a total mischaracterization. But what is new about that for you -- nothing. God compels no one to come to Him and compels no one to stay. That scenario exists only in a Calvinist's mind.

 

[The Biblicist]

Hmmm... That's all I see from you.

You have accused the Methodists, Nazarenes, Pentecostals, General Baptists, Free Will Baptists, and others of believing in justification by works and another gospel. Not only is that a lie, it is accusing these of not being Christians.

Again, the difference is that I do not merely "accuse" but I provide a basis for my accusation (whether you agree with it or not) but you provide only empty accusations.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Since you can change the definition of works to fit your position, there is nothing to be gained in furthering this discussion.

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head with that.

 

[The Biblicist]

Since you can change the definition of works to fit your position, there is nothing to be gained in furthering this discussion. Who knows what other definitions you will change?

Where do you get that notion from? I simply presented the Biblical definition of works that is glaringly found in Matthew 15 as well as in Matthew 5 and many other places. Works by definition include both inner and outer actions of man. If that were not the case than Jesus lied by saying a person committed adultery already "IN THEIR HEART" before actually committing the act or even when providence may have prevented the external action.

So how is that changing my definition at all? It is merely providing the right Biblical definition.

Your denial of eternal security is based upon an unbiblical definition of both works and sin.

 

[The Biblicist]

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head with that.

The nail he hit killed the foundation of his objection as well as yours.

 

[The Biblicist]

God compels no one to come to Him and compels no one to stay. That scenario exists only in a Calvinist's mind.

That is right! God gives them a NEW HEART and it is their OWN NEW HEART that compells them to stay.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

That is right! God gives them a NEW HEART and it is their OWN NEW HEART that compells them to stay.

And along with the new heart came a lobotomy of their free will. Uh huh.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

You know, Biblicist, since you consider that I hold to "another gospel", and thus must not be a true follower of Jesus, I think I am done talking with you.

 

[The Biblicist]

And along with the new heart came a lobotomy of their free will. Uh huh.

"for it is God that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" - Phililp. 2:13. The inclination of the new heart is in an inseparable union with the Spirit of God who promises NEVER to leave or forsake them and that is why they are kept by the POWER OF GOD through faith as that faith is the "fruit of the Spirit" and Christ is both the author as well as the FINISHER of it (Heb. 12:2) and therefore we can always be confident, knowing "that he which hath begun a good work in us WILL PERFORM IT UNTIL THAT DAY" (Philip. 1:6) as faith is the work of God (Jn. 6:29) without which no man can come to Christ (Jn. 6:36) and all who do come to Christ have been given, drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:37-40, 44) and "everyone" taught by the Father will come to the Son and be raised up to the resurrection of eternal life (Jn. 6:44-45).

 

[The Biblicist]

You know, Biblicist, since you consider that I hold to "another gospel", and thus must not be a true follower of Jesus, I think I am done talking with you.

Promise?:wavey:

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Promise?:wavey:

You're so narrow and nasty that I bet you can only have communion with yourself.

 

[The Biblicist]

You're so narrow and nasty that I bet you can only have communion with yourself.

Well, the fact is that I get along with myself quite well. I never said you were lost. I said you embrace and preach a false gospel. Now, if that is the gospel you embraced at your conversion then you are lost.