"Eternal Security" - "Unconditional Security"

On another Thread Dustin Shared

Dustin kinda hit a nerve, I guess...

For a long time everytime I heard the term "Eternal Security" growing up it was anathema to me...

But, when I did my research I discovered something I wasn't aware of...

It wasn't being "Eternally secure" that my denom was against it was "Unconditional Security"...

That is, setting aside standard Calvisnism and Arminian views on never saved vs back-sliding...

The 'sense' that some people believe that once you confess Christ and are Baptized that you can live like the devil and you remain saved...

Ie., Once Saved Always Saved - Unconditionally...

To me that sounds rather Catholic, , in that some catholic live like the devil but as long as they make it to confession it OK...

The OSAS-U sounds even 'worse' than the catholic view of Salvation...

Then of course there is the extreme other end of the Spectrum where you can lose your salvation for any and every infraction and therefore must always be on ones guard against sin...

Thankfully, most of us do not fit into either of the most extreme views...

Now, as an AoG adherent I have no lack of Joy because Ephesians 2:8-9 are my watch word for 'maintaining' my salvation. Ie., I don't because He is the author and finisher of my salvation... Not me...

We also like Romans 8:35-39 a great deal as it is a real and present comfort...

Where we tend to differ is where and how much Free-Will plays a part in our Staying Saved...

Not so much in the keeping oneself saved...

But, if one really crazy day one weere to decide they didn't want to be a Christian any longer and lick Jesus out of their lives...

No, granted only a crazy person would do such a thing... And, it is therfore highly unlikely...

But, we maintain that the possibility exists that a person could insist on their own course long enough (really long~~~~~) to finally exasperate the Holy Spirit...

I personally have never known anyone that mad at God long enough to rebuff the Spirit that long...

But, I suppose it is possible...

I mean, I tried it in anger and was able to stay angry just long enough to know I was angry and stupid...

I mean when Jesus is standing in front of you with His Arms Outstretched telling you you can't do such and such because He loves you...

Well, you scream that's not fair, stomp off to your truck drive down the road a ways and collapse crying...

So, while I believe it is theoretically possible to (intentionally) lose ones salvation... My own experience indicates it is not at all easy to do so...

Which leads my to a typically Calvinistic thought abouth those that "appear" to do so...

That they really didn't know the Jesus I know...

because after coming face to face with that love... How could I possibly continue in sin?

Mike Sr.

Oh, I almost forgot what struck the nerve...

It was the perception that such a one as I has no joy...

Nah... Gots plenty of joy... Perhaps, too much according to some on the music forums.

 

Hey, Dustin you answered during my one hour commute home.

I, too, have a problem with people who say you *have* to do "things" to be and stay saved...

But, then I also have a problem with people who say its all by Grace and then preach peripheral doctrines as if, if you don't do them you'll lose your salvation...

Tithing; Saturday Work Days; Wednesday Evening Prayer Meetings; well, you get the picture...

Don't get me wrong I think all these things are a part of a growing Christians Life...

They just ain't saved or not saved essentials...

Your point about joy is well taken, though...

Historically, Pentecostals have tended to be the woe is me bunch...

I am not sure it was the Armenianism thing as much as the, "I'm being persecuted by the devil syndrome".

Not that some of them weren't...

But, the whole movement?

Nah... I don't think so...

Of course I am not at all sure the new crop is any better, the, I smile all the time & have need of nothing bunch...

But, then that's yet another thread.

Have a Great Evening!

Mike Sr.

 

If I really believed that Calvinist believed and actually practiced this...

I would have trouble, real trouble with it...

I do not believe that the vast majority of Baptists takes advantage of OSAS; Eternale Security; or Unconditional Security...

IMHO, the vast majority of baptists are *very* serious about living a Holy Life before God...

And, 'naturally' avoid sin because they Love God not because they fear Him... Or, the loss of their salvation...

Which would be very much like this here Pentecostal Believes and Practices...

Mike Sr.

 

A very good question indeed.

 

Agreed Briguy...

Where 'we' Armenians have a questions is when verses like come into play:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Fine as far as the literal reading goes...

The Calvinist, I believe, will correctly point out that there is nothing said about loss of salvation...

The Armenian response is generally, "Oh, you're just making excuses for sin!"

And, the fight is on... Sadly...

As stated elsewhere, unlike most Armenians (apparently), I do not believe losing salvation is a thing accomplished easily, at all...

But, I do entertain the theoretical possibility that I am the only entity that is not listed in

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

So, at least hypothetically, if I were stupid and crazy enough to even want to try, I could ultimately resist the Love of God...

But, who, in their right mind, would really want to do so after tasting and seeing that The Lord He is Good...

So, in the end, I think, the real question is the importance we place on personal discipleship and
the importanance of Progressive Sanctification in our bodies and actions...

When we are saved we *are* the Righteousness of Chirst Spiritually and Legally in the Courts of Heaven... The Adoption Process is concluded and we are Legitimate Sons and Daughters of God...

But, we do not yet know how to act properly in our bodies and we are therefore placed under tutors and instructors in Righteousness...

Not for the sake of Salavation...

But, so that our Conduct in this Life reflects our position and station in the Courts of Our King...

If any of this makes any sense?

Mike Sr.

 

Charles,

If I take your point correctly we are in agreement...

As a non-Cessesionist and a Pentecostal I still believe that Tongues is the initial evidence...

But, just because someone has been filled does not mean they remain filled...

That is, they cease to Walk In The Spirit, and start to walk in the Flesh...

For the Classical Pentecostal there was (and still is) an, "I Have Arrived", attitude connected with the "Baptism"...

What they failed to realize is that it was only a starting point for a Walk in the Spirit and was in no way a gurantee that a person would continue to walk therein...

In fact one hypothesis I am working on indicates that Tongues as a Prayer Language is more a Word of Knowledge than Tongues as Prophecy...

That is, The Holy Spirit imparts the Knowledge of a supernatural Language for your prayer life...

Once that Knowledge is imparted... It can be abused... Allowing a "Tongue Talker" to continue to speak in Tongues even though they have ceased to walk in the Spirit...

I think it may explain the admonition to test oursleves to see whether we be in the faith our not... And, to test the spirits to see if they are of God or not...

As I said, this is a hypothesis of mine based on Scripture as viewed through my Pentecostal Roots...

Maybe this is really yet another thread?