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Evangelical Primitive Baptist....Not Cavinistic

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by changed_like_saul, Dec 7, 2001.

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  1. changed_like_saul

    changed_like_saul Guest

    The following is an email I received from Elder Mike Strevel. He and several other Primitive Baptist Elders are in the country of Kenya, around the city of Nairobi.

    Please see what they are preaching and teaching.

    Changed like Saul, by God's grace

    Elder Chris Folsom
    www.pbsermons.org

    --------- Forwarded message ----------
    From Mike Strevel
    Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 05:16:07 +0000
    Subject: Hello from Nairobi

    My Loved Ones,

    I write this at 8:00 am on Friday, December 7. It is a very
    pleasant morning with the temperature at around 60 degrees. We had an excellent
    day yesterday. Brother Jeff, Brother Nathan, and I were all blessed with
    good liberty in preaching the sweet gospel of the grace of God. They are
    eagerly receiving the word, but they are not push-overs. We had a very intense
    question and answer session yesterday for over two hours in which God
    blessed us to reason with them out of the scriptures. They wanted to
    know why preach the gospel if God has an elect which shall be saved. We told
    them that the gospel is not meant to give life to a sinner, but only
    manifest it. The gospel is the good news of what God has done, so we
    preach the gospel for the same reason as Paul when he said that, I endure all
    things for the elects' sakes that they may also enter obtain this
    salvation"- that is experientially enter in to what Jesus accomplished
    for them on the cross. They also asked if it would not be unfair for God to
    elect some and not others. Well, Romans 9 has the answer. God has a
    right to do what He will, when he will, for whom He will. God has purposed to
    magnify His mercy in the salvation of the elect and to magnify His
    justice in the damnation of others. They asked about why we do not use musical
    instruments. It seems as a revelation to them to hear of our reasoning
    that if we do not find an example or precept for anything in the NT we will
    not embrace it. We told that that is the same reason we reject Sunday
    schools, missionary societies, theological seminaries, etc. We had a great
    blessing in this session. We will go again today to meet with these good folks.
    Pray that God will open their eyes to His truth and they will hunger to
    be identified with the truth as believed by Primitive Baptists by baptism.
    We will travel to Bungoma tomorrow (DV), so we might not have an opportunity
    to e-mail again until Monday, so do not worry about us. I love you all and
    pray for you always and feel great comfort in your prayers.

    Brother Mike Strevel
     
    #1 changed_like_saul, Dec 7, 2001
  2. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We told
    them that the gospel is not meant to give life to a sinner, but only
    manifest it.     The gospel is the good news of what God has done, so we
    preach the gospel for the same reason as Paul when he said that, I endure all
    things for the elects' sakes that they may also enter obtain this
    salvation"- that is experientially enter in to what Jesus accomplished
    for them on the cross.     <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is what is wrong with this theology. It merely let's the elect know that they are already saved, and doesn't actually save them. In effect, it is only minutely different from liberal universalism, for it too teaches people are saved but just don't know it yet. Both deny the regenerating power of the Word of God. Both make Missions useless, other than to introduce the Savior to those whom he has already saved.

    The elect were assuredly chosen before the foundation of the world, and written in the Book of Life, but even the elect were headed for hell until they heard and believed by the will of God.

    Romans 10:14-17 (ESV)
    But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? [15] And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" [17] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

    Romans 1:16 (ESV)
    For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

    Ephes. 1:13 (ESV)
    In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

    Acts 16:30-34 (ESV)
    Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" [31] And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." [32] And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. [33] And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. [34] Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

    It is this type of hyper-Calvinism (for that is what it is despite the thread title) that has turned people from the true, biblical doctrines of grace to man-centered Arminianism.

    [ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
    #2 Chris Temple, Dec 8, 2001
  3. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> We told
    them that the gospel is not meant to give life to a sinner, but only
    manifest it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That is another Gospel. This implies that the elect are saved before conversion. I don't think this is typical of all Primitive Baptists but that statement gives me the creeps.
     
    #3 Kiffin, Dec 8, 2001
  4. changed_like_saul

    changed_like_saul Guest

    The scriptures do nothing but inform the child of God of what God through Christ has done....Paul said it this way......

    2 Timothy 1:
    8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
    10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
    11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

    Paul said it not me.

    God Bless

    Changed like Saul, by God's grace

    Elder Chris Folsom

    [ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: changed_like_saul ]
     
    #4 changed_like_saul, Dec 8, 2001
  5. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    Elder Chris,

    I agree with you what God through Christ has done and certaintly all the elect were bought at the cross. I also believe that salvation is applied to the elect when they are brought to faith and repentance but I am disturbed by the statement,


    "We told them that the gospel is not meant to give life to a sinner, but only
    manifest it."

    Well, we are dead in tresspasses and sins before conversions when means we need life. Maybe we are saying the same thing but in a differant way..I'm not sure but it comes across as saying that the elect before conversion are already saved or experianced the new birth it's just they don't realize it.

    Gloria in Excelsis Deo,
    Bro. Randy +†+
     
    #5 Kiffin, Dec 8, 2001
  6. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    I reread the statement many times and don't really think we are talking "about the same thing" in different terms.

    I am truly bothered by it and find yet another reason why I could not "sign on" to be part of that sect of Baptist.
     
    #6 Dr. Bob, Dec 9, 2001
  7. Roadrunner

    Roadrunner New Member

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    A primitive baptist church that is not calvinistic?

    That could happen only in Africa!
     
    #7 Roadrunner, Dec 9, 2001
  8. changed_like_saul

    changed_like_saul Guest

    I do not think I have attacked anyone. However, I have proposed the doctrine of scripture. What I have proposed, prior to 1830, all Baptist agreed with strongly. When the church split, new doctrines sprang up to keep from sounding and looking like the “the church.” Today we have literally hundreds of different Baptist.

    What I have proposed to everyone, who has read my posts, is the very doctrine which was upheld by Baptist prior to the 1830’s split.

    People have a hard time coming to terms with election and predestination. The reason is man likes to be in control. Man likes to think he can do something. Clearly scripture teaches God is sovereign in all things, including eternal salvation. Scripture repeats itself time and time again proclaiming God chose a people before the world was and laid down the plan of eternal salvation for those He loves.

    Here is an example:

    Matthew 1:21
    And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    This verse is as plain as it gets. The angel of the Lord told Joseph Mary would have a son and THOU SHALT call his name JESUS:… those two came true. Mary gave birth to a son just as the angel told Joseph, right? His name? JESUS, just as scripture says.

    So, how about the last part of the verse? The part that says “he shall save his people from their sins.” Is this part true or not true? Scripture is either true or it is not. Brethren, Jesus did accomplish what he came to do…save His people from their sins!! Christ said on the cross “It Is Finished”. What was finished? The work of eternal salvation, that’s what was finished. I’m thankful he completed the work He came to do. For my Savior is all powerful and knows His people and sometime between birth and the grave Jesus quickens or makes alive an individual. At that point, the individual can thirst after the things of God. Including learning the gospel.

    Here is another example:

    John 6:36
    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    All Christ said. Not some of them. All that the Father giveth. If God chose a people and He did, those God chose He gave to Christ. Every one that God gave Christ, SCRIPTURE says will come to Christ. Our Lord and Savior went on to say when they come, not if they come, He would not cast them out.

    Changed like Saul, by God’s grace

    Elder Chris Folsom www.pbsermons.org
     
    #8 changed_like_saul, Dec 10, 2001
  9. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    Elder Chris,

    I don't think that Chris, Bro. Bob or myself have any problems with TULIP. I believe all 3 of us are 5 point Calvinists. I think the problem is the termonology that seems to imply that the elect are born again before conversion. I'm a little confused by the statement that the gospel is not meant to give life to a sinner, but only manifest it.

    God Bless
    Randy +†+
     
    #9 Kiffin, Dec 10, 2001
  10. changed_like_saul

    changed_like_saul Guest

    Kiffin,

    That is exactly what I'm saying. The elect are born again/made alive before conversion. Based on scripture, it is the only way to have a desire to seek after the things of God.

    Example:

    John 3:3
    Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Christ said except a man be born again, man can not "see the kingdom of God". God's kingdom here on earth is the visible church. Christ said to simply be able to see the church i.e.seek after the things of God, to pray, to worship Him, to study scripture, to desire to fellowship with the brethren, man must be born again/quickened/made alive.

    Scripture tells us, the born again children of God, what great things the Lord has done. It proclaims the greatness of Christ. It declares the righteousness of God. Scripture declares why we need a Savior. Scripture does not give any man life, only Christ can give life (and in this sense, I am speaking of spiritual life).

    Scripture can certainly save the children of God, but not eternally, in the sense of our day to day lives. If we do as scripture tells us, obey our parents, for it right in the sight of God. Treat people the right way. Help the poor. Do not lie. Do not bear false witness. Try and walk the way Christ walked while He was here on earth. In other words, adhear to scripture though faith in Christ's finished work and we as children of God will have peaceful lives and we'll be happy. Scripture simply tells us what great things God did for His people through His Son Jesus Christ.

    I was raised in a SB church going to choir, sunday school, R.A.'s. I'm 38 yrs old and it was not till I turned 33 that I begain to study the bible for myself. I had heard of this election stuff but I was always told I had to "ask Jesus into my heart". As I studied scripture, I discovered untill God removed my heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh, my heart could not be pricked. The gospel, as much as I love it today, could not have pricked my heart of stone. The evidence that I am a child of God is that I love to hear the gospel preached. I love the fellowship with those of like faith and I love Jesus, because He first loved me. I am thankful God changed my stone heart with a heart of flesh. The gospel didn't change my heart, God did it!!!

    Changed like Saul, by God's grace

    Elder Chris Folsom
    www.pbsermons.org
     
    #10 changed_like_saul, Dec 10, 2001
  11. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I agree with you Elder Chris, but I have found over the years being a Primitive Baptist for 33 years this is a hard doctrine to understand for others. I see you have been on the other side of the fence so to speak. I'm sorry I can't say that being raised in the Primitive Baptist Church all my life.
    I don't know if you heard the true story of Elder Sonny Pyles uncles both discussing this same subject both elders.
    One of these elders had decided that the sinner was in pit wherein was no water. Speaking of the pit of sin in the book of Ezekiel which is the grave. Now he told his brother the other Elder that we need to preach to him and throw down to the gospel rope to save him. His brother said well you got a problem here, you see the preacher is in the same pit with him... Brother Glen :eek:
     
    #11 tyndale1946, Dec 10, 2001
  12. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by changed_like_saul:
    Kiffin,

    That is exactly what I'm saying. The elect are born again/made alive before conversion. Based on scripture, it is the only way to have a desire to seek after the things of God.    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    WIth this I can agree; regeneration precedes faitha and salvation in sequence, although it is virtually instantaneous.

    But this still does not mean we preach to inform those who are already saved that they are, for the preaching of the word is the means the Spirit uses to regenrate the lost sinner, i.e., the elect.
     
    #12 Chris Temple, Dec 10, 2001
  13. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    Elder Chris I agree that Regeneration precedes faith and repentance but the non elect before regeneration are lost and need to be made alive by the Holy Spirit.

    Regenerations produces faith but it is also equaly clear that "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God"


    Randy +†+
     
    #13 Kiffin, Dec 10, 2001
  14. changed_like_saul

    changed_like_saul Guest

    Dear Brother Chris Temple,

    I know it may sound like I do not like the scriptures, but believe me, I love God's word. It tells me what God through Christ has done. How Christ died for me. I love my Savior for what He did for me.

    However, the truth of the matter is the scriptures have no ability to give life. In scripture, who is the giver of life? The Giver of life is God and God gave the same to Christ.

    Consider this also, a child of God is called a new creature in Christ. Who can create? Can I, Chris Folsom, create life, even spiritual life? The absolute answer to that is NO!!! God is the one who creates and that same power is in the hands of Christ (John Chapter 1). So, if the born again child of God is called a NEW CREATURE who made the new creature? God and Him alone.

    God, by Christ, will not bring a person to life and then if the person does not invite Christ into his heart take away that life. No way!!!

    All I'm trying to get you to see is this:

    God sits on the thrown on high. He IS the Sovereign ruler of the universe. No one can stay His hand. God said, My voice shall not return unto me void.

    God's word is important. But God through Christ saved His people. The work of the Cross by Christ is finished and complete. All Christ died for are saved!!

    Changed like Saul, by God's grace,

    Elder Chris Folsom
    www.pbsermons.org
     
    #14 changed_like_saul, Dec 10, 2001
  15. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    John 5:39 Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they that testify of me. Need anything more be said... Brother Glen
     
    #15 tyndale1946, Dec 10, 2001
  16. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by changed_like_saul:
    Dear Brother Chris Temple,

    I know it may sound like I do not like the scriptures, but believe me, I love God's word. It tells me what God through Christ has done. How Christ died for me. I love my Savior for what He did for me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I have not said nor intimated that you don't love the Scriptures. I do think you are not interpreting them properly.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>However, the truth of the matter is the scriptures have no ability to give life. In scripture, who is the giver of life? The Giver of life is God and God gave the same to Christ.

    Consider this also, a child of God is called a new creature in Christ. Who can create? Can I, Chris Folsom, create life, even spiritual life? The absolute answer to that is NO!!! God is the one who creates and that same power is in the hands of Christ (John Chapter 1). So, if the born again child of God is called a NEW CREATURE who made the new creature? God and Him alone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I don't believe there is a Calvinist here on this board who woudl disagree with you here. Our disagreement is over the means of God's effectual call to salvation, which is always through his Word.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>God, by Christ, will not bring a person to life and then if the person does not invite Christ into his heart take away that life. No way!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Agreed. But God does not save the elect against their will; He regenerates them and frees their will to believe in him.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>All I'm trying to get you to see is this:

    God sits on the thrown on high. He IS the Sovereign ruler of the universe. No one can stay His hand. God said, My voice shall not return unto me void. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Interesting how you've changed the Scripture quote to "voice" from word. It is the Word of God which accomplishes his purposes.

    Isaiah 55:11 (ESV)
    so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
    it shall not return to me empty,
    but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
    and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.


    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>God's word is important. But God through Christ saved His people. The work of the Cross by Christ is finished and complete. All Christ died for are saved!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Correct. But even the elect are notsaved until regeneration and belief.

    John 5:24 (ESV)
    Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
     
    #16 Chris Temple, Dec 11, 2001
  17. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:
    Snipped massively.... But even the elect are notsaved until regeneration and belief.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    No matter how you slice it, that is the bottom line (to mix my metaphors). I agree the alternative does sound alot like universialism. Further, it is the type of thinking that allowed the pedo-baptists to let unregenerate members into their churches back in the 1700s.
    Hoping to shed more light than heat,
    Robertsson
     
    #17 Squire Robertsson, Dec 11, 2001
  18. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    A question here for Chris & Chris ;)

    Chris Temple: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> But God does not save the elect against their will; He regenerates them and frees their will to believe in him <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm confused. Chris Temple, are you saying that God regenerates (gives life to) man but he is not saved until he believes? Chris Folsom, are you saying that at that moment God regenerates (gives life to) man he is saved and then is able to believe?
     
    #18 rlvaughn, Dec 11, 2001
  19. changed_like_saul

    changed_like_saul Guest

    Brother Vaughn,

    The elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. Therefore saved before the world was. But legally at the cross of Calvary.

    At regeneration the child of God then has the ability to seek after the things of God and to know of the salvation Christ worked for him on the cross.

    Basic answer to your question is YES!

    Bro Temple, I'm preparing an answer for your last post. It'll be up soon. God Bless You Brother.


    Changed like Saul, by God's grace

    Elder Chris Folsom
    www.pbsermons.org
     
    #19 changed_like_saul, Dec 11, 2001
  20. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Another question for Chris, Chris, and all:

    Trying to narrow this down so we are not just talking semantics, because as I see it you both are saying that regeneration precedes and is necessary to belief. SO, to see if we are all talking about the same thing - what is regeneration; how and when does it take place?

    Chris Temple - also see other question above.
    Thanks.
     
    #20 rlvaughn, Dec 11, 2001
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