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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by BobRyan, Oct 19, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Both Calvinists and Arminians know that in real life the way to evangelize is to tell the audience - "God loves you. Jesus died for you. The Holy Spirit is convicting you of sin and righteousness and judgment. Please choose to accept the Gospel invitation."

    and most importantly " As ambassadors of Christ we BEG YOU to be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5.

    We all know - this is the only method that works in real life.

    Question - how much of that is honest and consistent for the Arminian Evangelist?

    How much of it would be false advertising for the 5 point Calvinist?

    If there is a Calvinist way to claim that this is consistent doctrine for Calvinists - then how so??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Oct 19, 2013
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No such words can be found in scripture! Find anywhere in Scripture where the Bible says "God loves YOU". Yes, you can find the word "world" (Jn. 3:16) but show me anywhere your choice of pronoun is used? Nowhere does the scripture ever say "Jesus died for YOU". Yes, you can find where scripture says he died for "sheep" "frends" "sinners" and "world" but show me anywhere the personal pronoun 'you" is ever used to any audiance in scripture??

    Nowhere can you ever find "The Holy Spirit is convicting YOU" Nowhere can you ever find where anyone ever said "Please choose to accept the Gospel invitation.' Nowhere.

    He is addressing BELIEVERS not the lost - read the context! Just as in Revelation 3 he is addressing saved baptized church members.

    No, we all do not know this and no it is not a matter of pragmatism but salvation is the work of God and there is no pragmatism about it. This is pure Arminianism pure and simple.

    How do I evangelize? I invite sinners to come to Christ for salvation. I tell them Christ died for sinners but Christ did not come to save the righteous! I invite those who are hungry, weary, burdened with sin to come to Christ and find rest. I NEVER TELL THEM that "YOU" are such as no one knows that to be true but God and the individual.
     
    #2 The Biblicist, Oct 20, 2013
  3. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Biblicist is correct. We have no right to add to the Gospel message. We cannot personalize the Gospel as though we have perfect knowledge that it applies to any specific person. When I share or preach the Gospel I implore the hearer to repent and believe, but I cannot tell them God loves them while they are in open rebellion against Him. God does not just hate sin, He hates the unconverted sinner.

    Do I preach the Gospel believing that all who hear can believe? YES! Do I implore them to do so? YES! The fact that not all can and not all will does not lessen the power of the message or my desire to preach it.
     
    #3 Herald, Oct 20, 2013
  4. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    You forgot several important elements in your Gospel:

    "God loves you. Jesus died for you. Ask Jesus into your heart today because God has a wonderful plan for your life.

    However -- and I say this with much regret and sadness -- should you not ask Jesus into your heart and die tomorrow, God will have no other choice but to change His plan and throw you into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone where you will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    So pleeeeease......do not let this happen. God loves you. I beg you....bow your heads now. Recite this unbiblical Sinners' Prayer in sincerity and you will be saved.........!"
     
    #4 Protestant, Oct 20, 2013
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    For those who believe the 2Cor 5 text below is not in the Bible -- we have news...

    2Cor 5

    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God

    For those believe that neither "we" nor "they" are in the world - the Bible text above - "has news".

    In the text itself Paul says that it is the WORLD that is being reconciled - not just "the saved".

    In the text it is the evangelist that is pleading with the lost to be reconciled to God - the saved have already chosen to be reconciled to God. Obviously.




    ------------------------------------------------------------
    For those who believe that the John 16 statement below is not in the Bible - we have news.


    John 16

    8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

    For those who believe that they are not in the world - I have news.

    ---------------

    Someone here has posted "We have no right to add to the Gospel message"

    Indeed we have no right to "take away" from that Gospel either.

    Hence this post.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #5 BobRyan, Oct 20, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "World" - and "US" is used interchangeably in 2Cor 5 - God reconciled US - God reconciled the WORLD.

    I think we both have seen that in these recent posts.

    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God

    The wild assumption that "world" in this broad sense does not include the lost is hard to swallow.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Oct 20, 2013
  7. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Bob,

    The difficulty faced in interpreting 2 Corinthians 5:19 is the pigeon-hole effect. If someone believes that God was in Christ reconciling the entire ["entire" without qualification] world to Himself, then they are taking a Universalist view. A qualification about the word "world" cannot be taken in such an interpretation. According to this interpretation Paul sets up a contradiction in verse 20. Why make an appeal to be reconciled to God if God is already reconciling the entire world to Himself? The appeal of reconciliation becomes unnecessary since God is in the process of doing it (v. 19). Believe it or not there are some passages that should not serve as proof texts for Arminianism or Calvinism.

    I read 2 Corinthians 5 in a straightforward fashion. We know the epistle is being written to "the Church of God which is at Corinth" (1:1). This means it is being written to believers. But the Apostle knew that not all in the visible church at Corinth were actually believers. Thus his appeal in 5:20, "we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." This also serves as a warning to those who would presume on their salvation without the evidence of being regenerated. Later on in the epistle Paul writes in 13:5, "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you - unless indeed you fail the test?"
     
    #7 Herald, Oct 20, 2013
  8. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    In this post you claim me as the author of the quote cited. Please divulge the source and context for the quote as I have no memory of making it.

    Thanks.
     
    #8 Protestant, Oct 20, 2013
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think it would be honest and consistent for the Arminian Evangelist.

    It would be false advertising to some advertising for the 5 point view (although not all, but the “not all” would be seen as fake Calvinists by others).

    There is a Calvinistic way to claim that this is consistent doctrine for Calvinists. First, God’s love for man does not mean that God does not love those condemned – this is a perversion of Divine Love. Second (and more difficult for a 5 point Calvinist), not all Calvinists reject the idea of Christ as a propitiation for the sins of the world. In that sense, Christ died for everyone – although this view culminates in condemnation for the non-elect (Christ died to redeem only the elect). Third, the Holy Spirit is convicting everyone of sin and righteousness and judgment. I’d argue that people who adhere to non-Christian religion are convicted of sin, and they are seeking salvation in some form based on their own righteousness.

    Finally, the sinner does have to accept the Gospel invitation, but a Calvinist could argue that (although there is an element of human responsibility in the salvation process) this acceptance is the grace of God. Spurgeon, for example, preached that if you are convicted and are genuinely being led to Christ then you are elect and need to accept the Gospel invitation – it is for you (I think of the "Come and Drink" sermon). Another example would be Timothy Keller.

    Now, if you mean if there is a Calvinist way to claim such with the majority of the Calvinists on the BB, then probably not. :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #9 JonC, Oct 20, 2013
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Interesting point. And there is Bible support for the Arminian style evangelistic appeal as we can see in 2Cor 5.

    2Cor 5

    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God

    How can the 4 and 5 point Calvinist ever justify saying that to his audience " we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God"


    Indeed we can all agree with that since if God only loved those already saved - there could be no evangelism - no growth in the church at all. It would have died a crib death in the first century.

    So the Calvinist may honestly call out "I am certain God loves some of the lost - and predestines that one day in the future they will be saved. Who knows - maybe you are one of those that God loves. "


    Indeed - but in 4 and 5 point Calvinism there is nothing to be gained by "begging YOU" to be reconciled to God since the work is all of God and none of you. Better to beg God that the person be reconciled to God.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Oct 20, 2013
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I stand corrected. Thank you sir.

    The quote is from "Biblicist" or "DrWalter"?

    And can be found here --

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2042551&postcount=2

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #11 BobRyan, Oct 20, 2013
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The pronoun "us" refers to the elect and the term "world" is not a second person pronoun that your statement is so full of. Furthermore, from a Jew sent to the Gentiles the term "world" makes more sense to mean "all without distinction of race, gender or class" rather than "all without exception" as billions were already in hell before this statement was said suffering the wrath of God. You do believe in a real place called hades do you not where there is conscious suffering of the wicked souls??????
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Oct 20, 2013
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    2Cor 5

    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God

    So then you are happy with 4 and 5 point Calvinists making the appeal TO THE Lost - in the form "20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God"

    ?? Really?? "we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God"

    World in this case means "world -- really really world as in the world where people are and specifically the people IN the world - lost humanity that needs to be reconciled to God".

    Does that help?

    As Paul points out in both Romans 9 and 11 - his Gospel evangelism is for BOTH Jews AND Gentiles.

    Billions had been lost by the time Paul spoke. But Paul did not say "no one has ever been lost" - - you are reaching for a diversion.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #13 BobRyan, Oct 20, 2013
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You are making a false assumtion, in fact 3 of them here!

    1. God loves all sinners equally
    2. God intended death of jesus as atonement for all sinners!
    3. that salvation based upon my will and response

    Better way to state this to sinners would be:

    Jesus died on the Cross as the sin bearer, as for the propiation to God for sinners such as you and I, and as per Apsotle paul,NOW is the aceeptable day of salvation, receive Jesus today and be saved and given a new nature by Him today!

    Look to Him and be saved!
     
    #14 Yeshua1, Oct 21, 2013
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Until you read Romans 2:11 "God is not partial". So the arbitrary selection doctrine of Calvinism does not even survive Roman 2:11.

    "God so Loved the WORLD that HE gave His only begotten son" - yes really.

    Not "God so loved the FEW of Matt 7 that He gave -- and the rest of the world He really does not care about".

    Until you read 1John 2:2 where God sent Christ to be the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

    Along with 1John 4 "God sent His Son to the Savior of the WORLD".


    Until you read Romans 10

    8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation




    The way God actually said it was -

    2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
     
    #15 BobRyan, Oct 22, 2013
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You really think it matters how 4 and 5 pointers or Arminians USE this text that determines what it means by context????????? If that is so, then no need to have any further discussion with you if that is your final authority!

    Have you read the context of 1 and 2 Corinthians at all????????? Apparently not! This was one of the most DIVIDED congregations in the first century and in great need of INTERNAL reconciliation with each other and with God BECAUSE church members cannot be unreconciled with each other and yet be reconciled to God. Reconciliation between the membership and between the membershhip and God was the very issue the forms the basis for Paul writing these letters.

    The "world" here has already been reconciled to God in regard to redemption and those reconciled are FRIENDS not enemies. This is the world of all races, genders, and classes or the world of the elect that will populate the coming new world.

    Does that help?
     
    #16 The Biblicist, Oct 22, 2013
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    2Cor 5

    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God



    So then you are happy with 4 and 5 point Calvinists making the appeal TO THE Lost - in the form "20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God"


    No - I think 4 and 5 point Calvinists completely louse up the meaning trying to bend the text to the usages of Calvinism in spite of the context. Some may do it in sort of an "any ol excuse will do" defense of Calvinism - but not all.

    I think there are some that might be willing to stop and take into account the fact that this totally cannot be shoehorned into Calvinism.


    If the "Entire world" is reconciled to God at the cross even by Calvinist standards -- but we still have "lost and saved" in that "entire world" then the appeal "We beg YOU on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God" is an appeal to the lost to choose to be reconciled to God.

    And that is called "evangelism".

    Turns out that process of turning the lost into the saved - is key to evangelism and the form it takes is "we beg YOU on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God".

    A distinctively Arminian foundation.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Oct 22, 2013
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You just ignored the whole context I placed before you! That is why it is fruitless to discuss anything with you. This church was unreconciled within and no church unreconciled within can be reconciled with God. He is addressed saved baptized church members.




    That is a bald face lie and you know it! Calvinists do not teach the word "world" means every living soul from Adam to the last human living and anyone who even has a "little" grasp of Calvinism knows that!
     
    #18 The Biblicist, Oct 22, 2013
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    2Cor 5

    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God



    So then you are happy with 4 and 5 point Calvinists making the appeal TO THE Lost - in the form "20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God"

    Whahuh?????

    To you expect to be taken seriously with that eisgete into the text?

    Paul was just speaking to Baptists?

    Just speaking to the saved members of the church already having chosen the Gospel -- and he is "begging THEM" ---- for what???

    (This had better be good. :) )

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Oct 22, 2013
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Double-speak - much?
     
    #20 BobRyan, Oct 22, 2013
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