Evangelistic atheistic evolutionists, such as Richard Dawkins,

That might be interesting, if there was any mention, anywhere in scripture, on ANY page, that said anything about free will.

In regards to the NT, we are called "doulos" more than anything else (that means "slave" {not "willing servant" but a purchased slave).

What part of "not according to human will (thelama> will, desire, choice)" and "works everything according to His own Will (desire, choice)" do people not understand?

People just can't stand it that God is in control, and they are not the Kings of their little universes...

 

It should be quite easy for you, then, to give quotes from scripture where human "free will" is specifically mentioned in relation to salvation.

Please don't mistake the words "choose" or "believe" or "confess" with the words "free will". Since you are "implying free will" is in the text, you are admitting "free will" isn't specifically mentioned in the text. You must bring that presupposition to the text.

I prefer to let scripture speak for itself. Scripture speaks specifically concerning the will of God in the salvation of men.

John 1:13 "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

John 3:7-8 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you here the sound of it, but do not know shere it comes from and where it is going, so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

John 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Romans 8:14 "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."

Romans 9:16 "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

Eph. 1:4-5 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."

Eph. 1:11 "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

Eph. 2:4-5 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

But concerning men, scripture says their wills are enslaved to sin.

John 8:34 "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

Romans 7:14 "For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin."

Romans 7:17-19 "So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 7:24-25 "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 8:7-8 "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

peace to youraying:

 

this lacks any kind of logic, as these phrases automatically assume free will since they only exist due to the freedom to do so.

 

When Jesus says that everyone that sins is a slave to sin, the idea of "free-will" is specifically rejected. The slave does the will of the one who controls him. That is the point of the analogy. That is Paul's point in Romans 7.

When scripture tells us that we are not born (again) by "the will of man", the idea of "free-will" in the salvation of men is specifically rejected and the will of God in the salvation of men is specifically mentioned.

My position does not lack logic, and it is consistent with scripture.

peace to youraying:

 

Well, if we are "controlled" by the Spirit, and His will is for us to not sin...why do we sin? We are only born again by God, but that still does not denote the freedom to accept or reject Christ. The reprobate in Romans exchanged the truth for a lie. That is choice, the option or two or more things (truth - lie). That is free will.

 

Why did Pharaoh sin and disobey God?

Because God would not allow Him the freedom from His own depravity to choose otherwise. God "Hardened" his heart. Scripture is clear we cannot choose God.

 

So God caused Pharaoh's sin? God made Pharaoh sin? That's hyper calvinism.

Would Pharaoh be one considered in Romans who "exchanged the truth for a lie"?

 

Note that the name calling does not address what was posted.

Note also Romans one addresses the general calling that goes out to all men and has nothing to do with the subject.

Back to the subject please

 

Note that there was no name calling at all. Quite dishonest, James.

 

First of all, please do not place quotes around the phrase "controlled by the Spirit", as if that is a quote from me. Those are not my words, they are your words.

The reprobate in Romans is representative of the "all have sinned and fallen short.....none seek after God, no not even one" The reason they don't seek after God is because sin controls them just as the master controls his slave and forces the slave to do his (the master's will).

Therefore, clearly, the will of the reprobate is under the control of sin. His "will" stays under the control of the sin master until he is freed by Jesus Christ. That is Paul's point.

I notice you didn't address a single scripture verse quoted which clearly speaks of the will of God in the salvation of men.

peace to youraying:

 

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

First of all, I notice you didn't address the verses of scripture quoted that demonstrates the will of God in the salvation of men.

I'll make a deal with you. I'll address the scripture you quoted if you will address the scripture I quoted. Just state your point plainly, please.

First of all, human "free-will" is nowhere mentioned in the text. This cannot be a text, therefore, that supports the notion of "free-will".

Do you believe this scripture verse teaches all men, every single human being that has ever lived, will be saved? Then you must be a universalist.

Do you believe this scripture verse teaches God wants every single human being that has ever lived to be saved, but is unable to bring about His desire? Then you must not believe God is all powerful.

What, exactly, do you believe the text teaches? Let's take a look at the context.

I Tim. 2:1+ "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, (2) for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. (3) This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,(4)who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Paul has stated in Chapter 1: v15+ that he is the worst of all sinners. He then states that Jesus Christ showed mercy to him as an example of perfect patience that is to be followed by future believers.

Paul then urges Timothy to make entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings to God on behalf of all men. He says "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior"

What is "good and acceptable in the sight of God"? It is the perfect patience exhibited by believers who make intercessory prayers for "all men", even for the kings who would persecute them, even for "gentiles" whom Paul mentions in v.7 (being appointed a preacher and an apostle to them). Does Paul believe they will all be saved? Well, from other verses of scripture, it is clear he does not.

That God desires them to come to a knoweldge of the truth and be saved is not different from God revealing Himself through His creation to all mankind. The fact they weren't saved because of that general revelation doesn't change the fact that God wanted them to realize who He is and worship Him as God. The failure of will is ours, not God's.

What does Paul mean here, then? Doesn't the context tell us that we should should have the perfect patience of Jesus Christ (praying for all men, everywhere) even when dealing with the worst of sinners?

peace to youraying:

 

I only put quotations around "controlled" not the whole phrase. That was the word YOU used. You don't read well...

Anybody can throw up a string of verses. What would you like me to address?

One cannot exchange the truth for a lie without having the truth as an option and knowing what it is.

 

Actaully, it doesn't. Let me ask you.. Why must the master make the slave do something? Is it because the slave 'can' do something different if he chooses? Answer: Yes. Yes the slave can 'will' to go against his masters authority.

Your logic does in fact lack in this area since Paul isn't saying one can not 'will or choose' but that one is bound to or owned by another. As a matter of fact if you are contending that Paul is speaking in Ch 7 of the lost/sinner, let me show in the same chapter of Roms that you are incorrect:

Thus according Romans 7 man can 'will' while sold under or in sin, but man does not have the means where by he can escape his prison. Thus not only do we need a saviour but we must also choose to follow him out of our bonage by trusting He is able (faith).

Secondly, your logic is still faulty but it is because it is based on your preconcieved notion (regarding being born again). You are correct in that man is not born again by the 'will of man' but what you are missing is that it isn't refering to what you are forcing upon the scripture, that is means 'choice'. This 'will' isn't about 'choice' but by sheer determination. IOW - Man is born agian by God not blood lines, nor from works, nor by sheer determination of will. That is what the entire verse is speaking of. Not about 'choosing' as is your postulation but that man is determining he IS TO BE or WILL BE born again. As though he were forcing God to obey him.

You keep tossing the term 'free-will' around without realy understanding what is meant by it. We are not speaking of libertarian free will but the responsibility of the will or limited will.

 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: This is funny. I checked in here to see what people were saying about Richard Dawkins and found another CvA debate. I would like to join the fray but alas, I must :sleeping_2: now. Have fun guys!

 

Possibly but I don't think so. However even in your rendition it doesn't negate the fact that Paul states 'God desires' all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. Not all types of men because that would make no sense in the context but states just what it means - all men.

Now don't mistake 'desires' for His 'decreed will' else all would be saved.

 

That is exactly what I did, but couldn't resist. :laugh:
You're the better man JD :thumbs:

Though I think I'm getting kinda tired of it and might just back off for a while. It is the same things about the same stuff, oh well.

Ever since I put up the thread on Hyper-Calvinism and it's beliefs, the debate exploded again. Funny thing is, I was't trying to debate Calvinism nor start something but look at the mess I caused.

 

In my opinion, there is a problem using "doulos" as an argument for God's specific soveriegnty in salvation. No Hebrew could make a permanent slave of another Hebrew without his specific consent. (Dueteronomy 15:12-18). So when each identified writer (all Jews) of an epistle calls himself a "slave of Christ", in my opinion he has identified himself with that tradition.

Having said that I am on the soveriegnty side of the argument.

 

Hmm. Let's look at a few verses that say "all"...

1Co 10:33 even as I please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.

Let's hope that has some qualifications....if it "pleases" men for Paul to deny Jesus, will he do it? No, we have to interpret it through things we read ELSEWHERE...

SO let's look at that verse again, in a FULL context:

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I exhort that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Notice the reference to "Kings and those in authority". 1 Timothy 2:4 must be taken in context with that. Paul is speaking of "all kinds, nations tongues" not each and every one. How do we know this? Well, for one...

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Notice that those who were "appointed" (assigned) to eternal life, believed (pisteo: had faith), NOT that those who believed, were appointed to eternal life.
As the Word was preached, those who were "assigned" to eternal life, had faith leading to salvation.

But you will say "No. ALL MEANS ALL" (even though that word does NOT just mean all...). Fine. Then look here...

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will,

If "all means all" in every case (a ridiculous, un scholarly concept that goes against the rules of translation and the meaning of the word used), then "all things" are predestined according to God's will. This means mens ability to choose does not go outside of God's predestined will: i.e. Compatibilism (Calvinism)


What about those who disobey?


1Pe 2:8 and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Scripture specifically says Salvation is NOT by our will (choice, desire). I do not know how else to say it.


Question: could someone in the free will camp PLEASE give an idea of what we would have to show in scripture, to prove it was God's sovereign choice? Like, an exact sentence?

You are not convinced, because you don't like it, not because scripture isn't clear.