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[Administrator: The following discussion is a good example of how some prefer to ignore the truth or suppress it when it is presented to them. The evolutionists are never able to answer John Wells’ questions and so they attack him from different sides. Rude and angry comments by the evolutionists were deleted, but there were quite a few.]
JOHN WELLS
Milan said, "Let's see some evidence for god and his acts. Then we shall see how they can be disproved. Until then, we don’t have to bother about the issue."
OK, how about:
1. Where did all the energy and matter in the universe come from?
2. Where did the first living cell/organism come from?
3. Where did intelligent code in each cell's DNA (30 encyclopedia volumes worth) come from?
You know Carl Sagan used to say that if the monitors "listening" for an intelligent sound (code) in outer space came up with one intelligent signal, it would "prove" that intelligent life was "out there." Why is it that 30 volumes of intelligent "code" within the living cell don't demand that an intelligent being is responsible for it as well?
4. Does anyone really believe that dirt, chemicals, and elements evolved into a human brain with more possible neural pathways than there are atoms in the visible universe, capable of 20 million billion calculations per second, and 10 billion neurons and 60 trillion synapses communicating through an elaborate system of electrical and chemical signals?
Start proving that anything other than an omnipotent God could achieve these four things!
ZERATUL
Let me throw one in from our side.
Where did the omnipotent God come from?
RONGOGIABE
Your argument then is: There is stuff I can't explain therefore there MUST be an omnipotent God. That doesn't take much, if any, faith.
What is the total energy of the universe anyway? People always say this without knowing the answer (if the answer is knowable.) If the total energy is zero, well hey no problemo. And that may well be the case.
I will dspense with the rest of the questions by noting they rely on the old fcu argument (first caused uncaused) and by noting that because man defines dna as a code does not mean that dna behaves as man says a code should.
Besides if you base your "faith" on the ignorance of mankind what are you gonna believe if someone figures this stuff out? Will naturalistic explanations destroy your faith? I hope not.
MAGFLARE
Start proving that anything other than an omnipotent God could achieve these four things!
Not until you prove that the Egyptian pyramids weren't constructed by space aliens.
I'm sorry, John, but creationism isn't true by default. You evaded the request for evidence by posing a series of questions-- difficult questions, of course, but questions for which scientists are seeking answers. "Unless you can prove otherwise, God did it" isn't an answer. It's a cop-out and a barrier to further research.
If you'd like to provide evidence for your god's handiwork, you can start by pointing out why DNA is, as you say, "intelligent code," as opposed to an originally simple but functional set of instructions that has been refined and added to over the course of billions of generations. I suspect your answer will boil down to something along these lines: "It's really complicated, and you don't know where it came from, so God did it."
RUFUS ATTICUS
John,
1. What evidence do you have that those four things DID come from a diving being?
2. What evidence do you have that that being was the God of the old testament and not--say--Hesiod's gods?
JOHN WELLS
First of all, it was Milan who said, "Let's see some evidence for god and his acts. Then we shall see how they can be disproved.”
I have merely taken him up and responded with four evidences that have no natural explanation. Then Zeratul jumps the gun with, “Where did the omnipotent God come from?” Slow down. We haven’t gotten that far yet. If there’s no natural explanation, it’s a logical assumption that they were caused unnaturally! That’s all I have deduced so far.
Rongogiabe, DNA represents INFORMATION--ordered, codified, structured, data. Think of it like info on your computer's hard drive. That info can take many forms...on your screen as photo blips, on the disk as magnetic blips, or you can write it down on paper as ink blips, etc. The human genome consists of 3.1 billion base pairs, the rungs that make up the ladder-like double helix of DNA. The code appears to be a repetitive readout of A's, C's, T's and G's, the nucleotides that pair up. Scientists do not know what that code says.
The point: the information is independent of the medium. It is absurd to say that the medium spawned the information. Rather, the info is coded onto the medium, just like the 'blueprints' of DNA are coded onto the physical structure of DNA. The independence of the info from the medium implies an outside and intelligent creator of the ordered info, whether we consider DNA, or the sentences you see on your screen right now.
Let’s see now. The counter arguments include: “Hesiod's gods,” “Egyptian pyramids/space aliens,” and lack of faith. The last one’s a bid odd. We Christians are usually criticized for our “faith.” I’ll be quite frank. It takes, IMHO, far more faith to believe something or some process caused the universe rather than a God who’s always existed. As to “What evidence do you have that that being was the God of the old testament?”
The prophecies in the Bible – there are hundreds of them, all having come true except those who’s time has not come. Here is a list of prophecies concerning Jesus alone:
As the Son of God. Ps 2:7.
Fulfilled. Luke 1:32,35.
As the seed of the woman. Gen 3:15.
Fulfilled. Gal 4:4.
As the seed of Abraham. Gen 17:7; 22:18.
Fulfilled. Gal 3:16.
As the seed of Isaac. Gen 21:12.
Fulfilled. Heb 11:17–19.
As the seed of David. Ps 132:11; Jer 23:5.
Fulfilled. Acts 13:23; Rom 1:3.
His coming at a set time. Gen 49:10; Dan 9:24,25.
Fulfilled. Luke 2:1.
His being born of a virgin. Is 7:14.
Fulfilled. Matt 1:22,23; Luke 2:7.
His being called Immanuel. Is 7:14.
Fulfilled. Matt 1:22,23.
His being born in Bethlehem of Judea. Mic 5:2.
Fulfilled. Matt 2:1; Luke 2:4–6.
Great persons coming to adore him. Ps 72:10.
Fulfilled. Matt 2:1–11.
The slaying of the children of Bethlehem. Jer 31:15.
Fulfilled. Matt 2:16–18.
His being called out of Egypt. Hos 11:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 2:15.
His being preceded by John the Baptist. Is 40:3; Mal 3:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 3:1,3; Luke 1:17.
His being anointed with the Spirit. Ps 45:7; Is 11:2; 61:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38.
His being a Prophet like to Moses. Deut 18:15–18.
Fulfilled. Acts 3:20–22.
His being a Priest after the order of Melchizedek. Ps 110:4.
Fulfilled. Heb 5:5,6.
His entering on his public ministry. Is 61:1,2.
Fulfilled. Luke 4:16–21,43.
His ministry commencing in Galilee. Is 9:1,2.
Fulfilled. Matt 4:12–16,23.
His entering publicly into Jerusalem. Zech 9:9.
Fulfilled. Matt 21:1–5.
His coming into the temple. Hag 2:7,9; Mal 3:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 21:12; Luke 2:27–32; John 2:13–16.
His poverty. Is 53:2.
Fulfilled. Mark 6:3; Luke 9:58.
His meekness and want of ostentatious. Is 42:2.
Fulfilled. Matt 12:15,16,19.
His tenderness and compassion. Is 40:11; 42:3.
Fulfilled. Matt 12:15,20; Heb 4:15.
His being without guile. Is 53:9.
Fulfilled. 1 Pet 2:22.
His zeal. Ps 69:9.
Fulfilled. John 2:17.
His preaching by parables. Ps 78:2.
Fulfilled. Matt 13:34,35.
His working miracles. Is 35:5,6.
Fulfilled. Matt 11:4–6; John 11:47.
His bearing reproach. Ps 22:6; 69:7,9,20.
Fulfilled. Rom 15:3.
His being rejected by his brethren. Ps 69:8; Is 63:3.
Fulfilled. John 1:11; 7:3.
His being a stone of stumbling to the Jews. Is 8:14.
Fulfilled. Rom 9:32; 1 Pet 2:8.
His being hated by the Jews. Ps 69:4; Is 49:7.
Fulfilled. John 15:24,25.
His being rejected by the Jewish rulers. Ps 118:22.
Fulfilled. Matt 21:42; John 7:48.
That the Jews and Gentiles should combine against Him. Ps 2:1,2.
Fulfilled. Luke 23:12; Acts 4:27.
His being betrayed by a friend. Ps 41:9; 55:12–14.
Fulfilled. John 13:18,21.
His disciples forsaking him. Zech 13:7.
Fulfilled. Matt 26:31,56.
His being sold for thirty pieces silver. Zech 11:12.
Fulfilled. Matt 26:15.
His price being given for the potter’s field. Zech 11:13.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:7.
The intensity of his sufferings. Ps 22:14,15.
Fulfilled. Luke 22:42,44.
His sufferings being for others. Is 53:4–6,12; Dan 9:26.
Fulfilled. Matt 20:28.
His patience and silence under suffering. Is 53:7.
Fulfilled. Matt 26:63; 27:12–14.
His being smitten on the cheek. Mic 5:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:30.
His visage being marred. Is 52:14; 53:3.
Fulfilled. John 19:5.
His being spit on and scourged. Is 50:6.
Fulfilled. Mark 14:65; John 19:1.
His hands and feet being nailed to the cross. Ps 22:16.
Fulfilled. John 19:18; 20:25.
His being forsaken by God. Ps 22:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:46.
His being mocked. Ps 22:7,8.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:39–44.
Gall and vinegar being given him to drink. Ps 69:21.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:34.
His garments being parted, and lots cast for his vesture. Ps 22:18.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:35.
His being numbered with the transgressors. Is 53:12.
Fulfilled. Mark 15:28.
His intercession for His murderers. Is 53:12.
Fulfilled. Luke 23:34.
His death. Is 53:12.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:50.
That a bone of him should not be broken. Ex 12:46; Ps 34:20.
Fulfilled. John 19:33,36.
His being pierced. Zech 12:10.
Fulfilled. John 19:34,37.
His being buried with the rich. Is 53:9.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:57–60.
His flesh not seeing corruption. Ps 16:10.
Fulfilled. Acts 2:31.
His resurrection. Ps 16:10; Is 26:19.
Fulfilled. Luke 24:6,31,34.
His ascension. Ps 68:18.
Fulfilled. Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9.
His sitting on the right hand of God. Ps 110:1.
Fulfilled. Heb 1:3.
His exercising the priestly office in heaven. Zech 6:13.
Fulfilled. Rom 8:34.
His being the chief corner-stone of the Church. Is 28:16.
Fulfilled. 1 Pet 2:6,7.
His being King in Zion. Ps 2:6.
Fulfilled. Luke 1:32; John 18:33–37.
The conversion of the Gentiles to him. Is 11:10; 42:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 1:17,21; John 10:16; Acts 10:45,47.
His righteous government. Ps 45:6,7.
Fulfilled. John 5:30; Rev 19:11.
His universal dominion. Ps 72:8; Dan 7:14.
Fulfilled. Phil 2:9,11.
The perpetuity of his kingdom. Is 9:7; Dan 7:14.
Fulfilled. Luke 1:32,33.
Run some of your scientific odds on all of these coming true, and not a single prophecy about Jesus missing the mark, let alone the hundreds of others in the Bible about other things. Fulfilled prophecies on the magnitude that they occur in the Bible with zero that miss the mark makes the Bible an extremely unusual book. It just occurs to me that a book that has an astounding record of predicting future events maybe ought to be believed in what it says about non-prophetical things – like historical things!
KMGRABA
If there’s no natural explanation, it’s a logical assumption that they were caused unnaturally! That’s all I have deduced so far.
This is incorrect. If there is no current explanation for something, it doesn't make any sense to posit that God is the explanation with no evidence. When you have evidence, you will have a case.
The point: the information is independent of the medium. It is absurd to say that the medium spawned the information. Rather, the info is coded onto the medium, just like the 'blueprints' of DNA are coded onto the physical structure of DNA. The independence of the info from the medium implies an outside and intelligent creator of the ordered info, whether we consider DNA, or the sentences you see on your screen right now.
General information can easily be found about any object. If I found a pile of sand, I could find lots of information: the slope of the pile, how symmetric it is, and so on. Yet this does not mean that someone ordered the sand around in a pattern. Furthermore, that information can be represented by several mediums is completely irrelevent to the idea that a creator actively made life forms.
Let’s see now. The counter arguments include: “Hesiod's gods,” “Egyptian pyramids/space aliens,” and lack of faith. The last one’s a bid odd. We Christians are usually criticized for our “faith.” I’ll be quite frank. It takes, IMHO, far more faith to believe something or some process caused the universe rather than a God who’s always existed.
This does not address the objections at all.
As for requiring faith to believe something or some process caused the universe, it requires no faith to do. Just as I believe that something or some process keeps the Earth revolving around Sol rather than the will of God.
As to “What evidence do you have that that being was the God of the old testament?”
The prophecies in the Bible – there are hundreds of them, all having come true except those who’s time has not come. Here is a list of prophecies concerning Jesus alone:…
Actually, this looks to be (at best) foreshadowing. While considered part of several good stories, it's not exactly a good test of divinity.
DANEEL
How many of the things you said came true did you see come true and how many where confirmed by people you could trust were telling the truth? Humans wrote the bible for a reason. Their reasons and the reasons you think they wrote it might not be the same reasons. Basing your life on a 2000 year old book written by men claiming they were inspired by god is not what I would call logical.
Humans have been conjuring up Gods and myths ever since they started trying to figure out the universe and why they were here. The human mind is an animal mind and did not evolve to solve these kinds of questions. We use logic but the logic must have premises. Since there are no premises dealing with how and why we are here they made up Gods and myths. How many Gods are there? Hundreds if not thousands! The God of the Bible is just one and has no more evidence to support it than any of the other Gods. So why do people believe? Because they want to is as good an explanation as any.
TGAMBLE
1. Where did all the energy and matter in the universe come from?
Big Bang
2. Where did the first living cell/organism come from?
Evolved from preexisting elements.
3. Where did intelligent code in each cell's DNA (30 encyclopedia volumes worth) come from?.
Considering most of the DNA is junk DNA I doubt there's that much. But it to, evolved.
You know Carl Sagen used to say that if the monitors "listening" for an intelligent sound (code) in outer space came up with one intelligent signal, it would "prove" that intelligent life was "out there." Why is it that 30 volumes of intelligent "code" within the living cell don't demand that an intelligent being is responsible for it as well?
Because a) there's no intdependent evidence of an intellegent being and b) there's a better explanation.
4. Does anyone really believe that dirt, chemicals, and elements evolved into a human brain with more possible neural pathways than there are atoms in the visible universe, capable of 20 million billion calculations per second, and 10 billion neurons and 60 trillion synapses communicating through an elaborate system of electrical and chemical signals?
Dirt?! What does dirt have to do with it?!
Start proving that anything other than an omnipotent God could achieve these four things!
And just what evidence would you accept and not dismiss without consideration?
[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Administrator ]
JOHN WELLS
Milan said, "Let's see some evidence for god and his acts. Then we shall see how they can be disproved. Until then, we don’t have to bother about the issue."
OK, how about:
1. Where did all the energy and matter in the universe come from?
2. Where did the first living cell/organism come from?
3. Where did intelligent code in each cell's DNA (30 encyclopedia volumes worth) come from?
You know Carl Sagan used to say that if the monitors "listening" for an intelligent sound (code) in outer space came up with one intelligent signal, it would "prove" that intelligent life was "out there." Why is it that 30 volumes of intelligent "code" within the living cell don't demand that an intelligent being is responsible for it as well?
4. Does anyone really believe that dirt, chemicals, and elements evolved into a human brain with more possible neural pathways than there are atoms in the visible universe, capable of 20 million billion calculations per second, and 10 billion neurons and 60 trillion synapses communicating through an elaborate system of electrical and chemical signals?
Start proving that anything other than an omnipotent God could achieve these four things!
ZERATUL
Let me throw one in from our side.
Where did the omnipotent God come from?
RONGOGIABE
Your argument then is: There is stuff I can't explain therefore there MUST be an omnipotent God. That doesn't take much, if any, faith.
What is the total energy of the universe anyway? People always say this without knowing the answer (if the answer is knowable.) If the total energy is zero, well hey no problemo. And that may well be the case.
I will dspense with the rest of the questions by noting they rely on the old fcu argument (first caused uncaused) and by noting that because man defines dna as a code does not mean that dna behaves as man says a code should.
Besides if you base your "faith" on the ignorance of mankind what are you gonna believe if someone figures this stuff out? Will naturalistic explanations destroy your faith? I hope not.
MAGFLARE
Start proving that anything other than an omnipotent God could achieve these four things!
Not until you prove that the Egyptian pyramids weren't constructed by space aliens.
I'm sorry, John, but creationism isn't true by default. You evaded the request for evidence by posing a series of questions-- difficult questions, of course, but questions for which scientists are seeking answers. "Unless you can prove otherwise, God did it" isn't an answer. It's a cop-out and a barrier to further research.
If you'd like to provide evidence for your god's handiwork, you can start by pointing out why DNA is, as you say, "intelligent code," as opposed to an originally simple but functional set of instructions that has been refined and added to over the course of billions of generations. I suspect your answer will boil down to something along these lines: "It's really complicated, and you don't know where it came from, so God did it."
RUFUS ATTICUS
John,
1. What evidence do you have that those four things DID come from a diving being?
2. What evidence do you have that that being was the God of the old testament and not--say--Hesiod's gods?
JOHN WELLS
First of all, it was Milan who said, "Let's see some evidence for god and his acts. Then we shall see how they can be disproved.”
I have merely taken him up and responded with four evidences that have no natural explanation. Then Zeratul jumps the gun with, “Where did the omnipotent God come from?” Slow down. We haven’t gotten that far yet. If there’s no natural explanation, it’s a logical assumption that they were caused unnaturally! That’s all I have deduced so far.
Rongogiabe, DNA represents INFORMATION--ordered, codified, structured, data. Think of it like info on your computer's hard drive. That info can take many forms...on your screen as photo blips, on the disk as magnetic blips, or you can write it down on paper as ink blips, etc. The human genome consists of 3.1 billion base pairs, the rungs that make up the ladder-like double helix of DNA. The code appears to be a repetitive readout of A's, C's, T's and G's, the nucleotides that pair up. Scientists do not know what that code says.
The point: the information is independent of the medium. It is absurd to say that the medium spawned the information. Rather, the info is coded onto the medium, just like the 'blueprints' of DNA are coded onto the physical structure of DNA. The independence of the info from the medium implies an outside and intelligent creator of the ordered info, whether we consider DNA, or the sentences you see on your screen right now.
Let’s see now. The counter arguments include: “Hesiod's gods,” “Egyptian pyramids/space aliens,” and lack of faith. The last one’s a bid odd. We Christians are usually criticized for our “faith.” I’ll be quite frank. It takes, IMHO, far more faith to believe something or some process caused the universe rather than a God who’s always existed. As to “What evidence do you have that that being was the God of the old testament?”
The prophecies in the Bible – there are hundreds of them, all having come true except those who’s time has not come. Here is a list of prophecies concerning Jesus alone:
As the Son of God. Ps 2:7.
Fulfilled. Luke 1:32,35.
As the seed of the woman. Gen 3:15.
Fulfilled. Gal 4:4.
As the seed of Abraham. Gen 17:7; 22:18.
Fulfilled. Gal 3:16.
As the seed of Isaac. Gen 21:12.
Fulfilled. Heb 11:17–19.
As the seed of David. Ps 132:11; Jer 23:5.
Fulfilled. Acts 13:23; Rom 1:3.
His coming at a set time. Gen 49:10; Dan 9:24,25.
Fulfilled. Luke 2:1.
His being born of a virgin. Is 7:14.
Fulfilled. Matt 1:22,23; Luke 2:7.
His being called Immanuel. Is 7:14.
Fulfilled. Matt 1:22,23.
His being born in Bethlehem of Judea. Mic 5:2.
Fulfilled. Matt 2:1; Luke 2:4–6.
Great persons coming to adore him. Ps 72:10.
Fulfilled. Matt 2:1–11.
The slaying of the children of Bethlehem. Jer 31:15.
Fulfilled. Matt 2:16–18.
His being called out of Egypt. Hos 11:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 2:15.
His being preceded by John the Baptist. Is 40:3; Mal 3:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 3:1,3; Luke 1:17.
His being anointed with the Spirit. Ps 45:7; Is 11:2; 61:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38.
His being a Prophet like to Moses. Deut 18:15–18.
Fulfilled. Acts 3:20–22.
His being a Priest after the order of Melchizedek. Ps 110:4.
Fulfilled. Heb 5:5,6.
His entering on his public ministry. Is 61:1,2.
Fulfilled. Luke 4:16–21,43.
His ministry commencing in Galilee. Is 9:1,2.
Fulfilled. Matt 4:12–16,23.
His entering publicly into Jerusalem. Zech 9:9.
Fulfilled. Matt 21:1–5.
His coming into the temple. Hag 2:7,9; Mal 3:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 21:12; Luke 2:27–32; John 2:13–16.
His poverty. Is 53:2.
Fulfilled. Mark 6:3; Luke 9:58.
His meekness and want of ostentatious. Is 42:2.
Fulfilled. Matt 12:15,16,19.
His tenderness and compassion. Is 40:11; 42:3.
Fulfilled. Matt 12:15,20; Heb 4:15.
His being without guile. Is 53:9.
Fulfilled. 1 Pet 2:22.
His zeal. Ps 69:9.
Fulfilled. John 2:17.
His preaching by parables. Ps 78:2.
Fulfilled. Matt 13:34,35.
His working miracles. Is 35:5,6.
Fulfilled. Matt 11:4–6; John 11:47.
His bearing reproach. Ps 22:6; 69:7,9,20.
Fulfilled. Rom 15:3.
His being rejected by his brethren. Ps 69:8; Is 63:3.
Fulfilled. John 1:11; 7:3.
His being a stone of stumbling to the Jews. Is 8:14.
Fulfilled. Rom 9:32; 1 Pet 2:8.
His being hated by the Jews. Ps 69:4; Is 49:7.
Fulfilled. John 15:24,25.
His being rejected by the Jewish rulers. Ps 118:22.
Fulfilled. Matt 21:42; John 7:48.
That the Jews and Gentiles should combine against Him. Ps 2:1,2.
Fulfilled. Luke 23:12; Acts 4:27.
His being betrayed by a friend. Ps 41:9; 55:12–14.
Fulfilled. John 13:18,21.
His disciples forsaking him. Zech 13:7.
Fulfilled. Matt 26:31,56.
His being sold for thirty pieces silver. Zech 11:12.
Fulfilled. Matt 26:15.
His price being given for the potter’s field. Zech 11:13.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:7.
The intensity of his sufferings. Ps 22:14,15.
Fulfilled. Luke 22:42,44.
His sufferings being for others. Is 53:4–6,12; Dan 9:26.
Fulfilled. Matt 20:28.
His patience and silence under suffering. Is 53:7.
Fulfilled. Matt 26:63; 27:12–14.
His being smitten on the cheek. Mic 5:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:30.
His visage being marred. Is 52:14; 53:3.
Fulfilled. John 19:5.
His being spit on and scourged. Is 50:6.
Fulfilled. Mark 14:65; John 19:1.
His hands and feet being nailed to the cross. Ps 22:16.
Fulfilled. John 19:18; 20:25.
His being forsaken by God. Ps 22:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:46.
His being mocked. Ps 22:7,8.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:39–44.
Gall and vinegar being given him to drink. Ps 69:21.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:34.
His garments being parted, and lots cast for his vesture. Ps 22:18.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:35.
His being numbered with the transgressors. Is 53:12.
Fulfilled. Mark 15:28.
His intercession for His murderers. Is 53:12.
Fulfilled. Luke 23:34.
His death. Is 53:12.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:50.
That a bone of him should not be broken. Ex 12:46; Ps 34:20.
Fulfilled. John 19:33,36.
His being pierced. Zech 12:10.
Fulfilled. John 19:34,37.
His being buried with the rich. Is 53:9.
Fulfilled. Matt 27:57–60.
His flesh not seeing corruption. Ps 16:10.
Fulfilled. Acts 2:31.
His resurrection. Ps 16:10; Is 26:19.
Fulfilled. Luke 24:6,31,34.
His ascension. Ps 68:18.
Fulfilled. Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9.
His sitting on the right hand of God. Ps 110:1.
Fulfilled. Heb 1:3.
His exercising the priestly office in heaven. Zech 6:13.
Fulfilled. Rom 8:34.
His being the chief corner-stone of the Church. Is 28:16.
Fulfilled. 1 Pet 2:6,7.
His being King in Zion. Ps 2:6.
Fulfilled. Luke 1:32; John 18:33–37.
The conversion of the Gentiles to him. Is 11:10; 42:1.
Fulfilled. Matt 1:17,21; John 10:16; Acts 10:45,47.
His righteous government. Ps 45:6,7.
Fulfilled. John 5:30; Rev 19:11.
His universal dominion. Ps 72:8; Dan 7:14.
Fulfilled. Phil 2:9,11.
The perpetuity of his kingdom. Is 9:7; Dan 7:14.
Fulfilled. Luke 1:32,33.
Run some of your scientific odds on all of these coming true, and not a single prophecy about Jesus missing the mark, let alone the hundreds of others in the Bible about other things. Fulfilled prophecies on the magnitude that they occur in the Bible with zero that miss the mark makes the Bible an extremely unusual book. It just occurs to me that a book that has an astounding record of predicting future events maybe ought to be believed in what it says about non-prophetical things – like historical things!
KMGRABA
If there’s no natural explanation, it’s a logical assumption that they were caused unnaturally! That’s all I have deduced so far.
This is incorrect. If there is no current explanation for something, it doesn't make any sense to posit that God is the explanation with no evidence. When you have evidence, you will have a case.
The point: the information is independent of the medium. It is absurd to say that the medium spawned the information. Rather, the info is coded onto the medium, just like the 'blueprints' of DNA are coded onto the physical structure of DNA. The independence of the info from the medium implies an outside and intelligent creator of the ordered info, whether we consider DNA, or the sentences you see on your screen right now.
General information can easily be found about any object. If I found a pile of sand, I could find lots of information: the slope of the pile, how symmetric it is, and so on. Yet this does not mean that someone ordered the sand around in a pattern. Furthermore, that information can be represented by several mediums is completely irrelevent to the idea that a creator actively made life forms.
Let’s see now. The counter arguments include: “Hesiod's gods,” “Egyptian pyramids/space aliens,” and lack of faith. The last one’s a bid odd. We Christians are usually criticized for our “faith.” I’ll be quite frank. It takes, IMHO, far more faith to believe something or some process caused the universe rather than a God who’s always existed.
This does not address the objections at all.
As for requiring faith to believe something or some process caused the universe, it requires no faith to do. Just as I believe that something or some process keeps the Earth revolving around Sol rather than the will of God.
As to “What evidence do you have that that being was the God of the old testament?”
The prophecies in the Bible – there are hundreds of them, all having come true except those who’s time has not come. Here is a list of prophecies concerning Jesus alone:…
Actually, this looks to be (at best) foreshadowing. While considered part of several good stories, it's not exactly a good test of divinity.
DANEEL
How many of the things you said came true did you see come true and how many where confirmed by people you could trust were telling the truth? Humans wrote the bible for a reason. Their reasons and the reasons you think they wrote it might not be the same reasons. Basing your life on a 2000 year old book written by men claiming they were inspired by god is not what I would call logical.
Humans have been conjuring up Gods and myths ever since they started trying to figure out the universe and why they were here. The human mind is an animal mind and did not evolve to solve these kinds of questions. We use logic but the logic must have premises. Since there are no premises dealing with how and why we are here they made up Gods and myths. How many Gods are there? Hundreds if not thousands! The God of the Bible is just one and has no more evidence to support it than any of the other Gods. So why do people believe? Because they want to is as good an explanation as any.
TGAMBLE
1. Where did all the energy and matter in the universe come from?
Big Bang
2. Where did the first living cell/organism come from?
Evolved from preexisting elements.
3. Where did intelligent code in each cell's DNA (30 encyclopedia volumes worth) come from?.
Considering most of the DNA is junk DNA I doubt there's that much. But it to, evolved.
You know Carl Sagen used to say that if the monitors "listening" for an intelligent sound (code) in outer space came up with one intelligent signal, it would "prove" that intelligent life was "out there." Why is it that 30 volumes of intelligent "code" within the living cell don't demand that an intelligent being is responsible for it as well?
Because a) there's no intdependent evidence of an intellegent being and b) there's a better explanation.
4. Does anyone really believe that dirt, chemicals, and elements evolved into a human brain with more possible neural pathways than there are atoms in the visible universe, capable of 20 million billion calculations per second, and 10 billion neurons and 60 trillion synapses communicating through an elaborate system of electrical and chemical signals?
Dirt?! What does dirt have to do with it?!
Start proving that anything other than an omnipotent God could achieve these four things!
And just what evidence would you accept and not dismiss without consideration?
[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Administrator ]