Evolution and creation

[El_Guero]

A long time ago in a different forum, I tried to start a thread so that there might be some intelligent transfer of knowledge about evolution and creation.

Like many thread on this topic, it broke down somewhat.

But, is there any scientific knowledge that we can share? Or is the only issue defeating the other person in an argument?

Personally, I want to learn more about the Science of Genetics.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=19125

 

[Alcott]

I'm not sure how you expect to really learn it on a message board that is split on the topic. And yes, the only issue seems to be defeating the other person in an argument.

 

[billwald]

There is no creation science because God zaps whatever he wants and micromanages by microzapping. As Jesus said, a seed can't sprout unless it first dies so every plant is a miraculous resurrection.

 

[DQuixote]

"intelligent transfer of knowledge about evolution and creation" is an intellectual pursuit. It is based entirely upon the rationale of man. It will never come up with a "truth statement" about origins. It is doomed to fizzel, to shrivel up in endless argument, the combatants not at all unlike the Sumo wrestlers.

One must approach origins in the spiritual realm, not through the fog of the flesh (mind, will, emotions, pre-conceived notions and ideas).

One does that by spiritually examining Genesis 1:1, John 1:1ff, Hebrews 1:1ff, 1 John 1:1ff (the first few verses of each), and entering into a time of prayer and meditation on the awesomeness of what God has wrought, not spinning one's wheels in intellectual quicksand.

:godisgood:

 

[Helen]

I disagree with them El Guero. I have studied genetics and find it fascinating. I also find it points back to distinct kinds.
There are some books which are very good. First of all, get any standard genetics college text. Evolutionary or not, you will get some basic facts about genes, chromosomes, etc.

Then there are three books I would highly recommend, and one is by a staunch evolutionist:

The Way of the Cell, by Franklin M. Harold (the evolutionist), available here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0195163389/?tag=baptis04-20
This book basically admits that cells only come from cells. His dead ends, which he admits on a series of things, lead directly back to special creation although I think he would rather die than admit that. But the book is brutally honest about a number of things which are not helpful to evolution at all. Franklin is Emeritus Professor of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology at Colorado State University.

The Biotic Message, by Walter J. ReMine, available here:
http://www1.minn.net/~science/
This book is widely panned by evolutionists. Nevertheless it is meticulously researched and referenced. I recommend it highly.

Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome, by John Sanford, available here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1599190028/?tag=baptis04-20
I loaned out my copy and it hasn't been 'loaned back' yet, but it is an incredible book, detailing many of the problems with evolution in genetics, by a professional geneticist who has been working in the field for years. He used to be an evolutionist, so his material is very interesting as a result.

Other than that, if you have any specific questions, there are a few people on here who probably can fight about the responses...:laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

El Guero -

Let us say "for the sake of your question" that instead of this being a debate between junk-science false religion of Atheist Darwinism - vs Bible believing Christians that can accept REAL science but not junk-science that the we actually had an alternate reality. Something a bit less lopsided.

Suppose (as in the example I gave about Iron Ore assembling itself to become a chainsaw)... that what we had was the Creationist model "God is the Creator of all life" vs the Atheist model "Yes but we can do it too in the lab and we think that is how it was really done".

What if instead of Christians and REAL scientists saying "We can not do this -- only God can" we had them saying "I happen to believe that God did it but I also see that we found ways to do this ourselves in the lab every day".

The atheists could then share with us how they were able to successfully create life in the Lab then manipulate it and get it to evolve up the taxonomic chain. Perhaps starting with a vat of amino acids and eventually making their way to coral via artificial means (or at the least to a valid Eukaryote).

Christians could then argue that what we find in nature is not what was done in the lab and so it indicates God is the one that actually did this - not some humans coming from another world and doing the same lab experiment here that the atheists had just done for us.

In other words - it would no longer be the problem of Christians AND REAL science saying "not only DID this not happen as the atheists claim it CAN NOT BE MADE to happen even artificially".

As in the case of chainsaws WE CAN make them - we just don't see iron ore "self organizing" to form chainsaws on their own.

The atheist that wants to argue that they DO self organize and then shows how that might be by MAKING ONE in the lab using techniques that he/she believes faithfully might represent zillions of years of time compressed artificially into a few weeks of time would at least HAVE an argument.

They would at least HAVE some science to share -- not "pure storytelling" about what they CAN NOT do in the lab but IMAGINE to have happened on its own given enough billion years because after all "there IS NO GOD".

When you speak to the distinctive differences between Bible believing Christians and atheists on the subject of origins - you are not talking about the same everyday sciences that are staffed today by BOTH Bible believing Christians and Atheists having actual SUCCESSES but one along Christian lines and another along atheist lines. The real SCIENCE is unchanged. The ability to "TELL STORIES" on the other hand is massive - is considerable on the part of the atheist darwinists. Perhaps you are saying that Christians could learn a thing or two about story telling from them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[El_Guero]

Well this attempt is doing much better than my other attempt . . .

Keep the good info coming.

God bless

Wayne

 

[ccdnt]

There is no creation science because God zaps whatever he wants and micromanages by microzapping. As Jesus said, a seed can't sprout unless it first dies so every plant is a miraculous resurrection.

Uh...what point were you trying to make?

 

[Rew_10]

Here's what pretty much sums up what I think about "Creation". Go to www.youtube.com and type in Lewis Black-Fossils:The Devil's Handiwork. I won't provide the link because it has a small amount of foul language. Enjoy :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

Let us say "for the sake of your question" that instead of this being a debate between junk-science false religion of Atheist Darwinism - vs Bible believing Christians that can accept REAL science but not junk-science-- let's suppose that the we actually had an alternate reality. Something a bit less lopsided. Something where the atheist darwinist had a bit more than "over inflated storytelling" by way of facts to back up their wild claims for abiogenesis or elphants turnining into Whales.

What kind of world would that be anyway?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[billwald]

Does a seed die before it sprouts? Then why do farmers avoid planting dead seed by "proofing" their seed? Is a seed that dies in storage different than a seed that dies after falling to the ground?

Do we live in a "real" physical universe or a mystical/ magical universe that only exists in the mind of God? Is God the "Matrix?" If God took a picosecond vacation would we disappear?

My point is that there is no common point of reference between people who think the Bible is a science text and the rest of humanity.

150 years ago there was no logical procedure to test for God's micromanagement of this earth. Now we have statistical analysis. There is no evidence that "Christian" prayer is more effective than other forms of prayer and meditation. Or do we conclude that a majority of Christians are asking God for improper favors?

 

[BobRyan]

God says that we should pray for those who are sick in James 5.
God told Mary that she would have a Son and He would be God's Son - no earthly Father.
God spoke directly to Moses on Sinai -
Many who touched the cloth that was touched by Paul were instantly healed.
Christ walked through towns where whole villages where healed by him
Christ walked on Water, raised the dead, cast out demons, spoke to Moses and Elijah along with 3 Disciples in on the Mt of Transfiguration
Raised lazarus
Raised Himself
died for our sins
And will one day appear in the clouds of heaven, rapture the church and light the lake of fire

But there are people here who argue "IF God said it - it can not POSSIBLY be real".

As long as you keep God out there at the level of an "easter bunny" then nothing in scripture is real. Atheist darwinism for this life and the easter bunny for the life to come. And that is exactly the way that atheists would have it. They dream of the day that all christians climb down into a dark cave where only in fairytale land are the Words of God REAL.

In Romans 1 GOD says that "The Invisible attributes of God are CLEARLY SEEN in the THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE - EVEN by unbelieving PAGANS" who are turning their back on God.

But today's true believer in atheist darwinism says "hogwash - Romans 1 can not possibly be true! Only a Christian could possibly IMAGINE that the things they see WERE MADE to start with".

Their compromised position is easly "detected".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[El_Guero]

Brother

It sure sounds like someone does not believe that God will answer prayer.

I know that He answers prayer - been there done that.

God says that we should pray for those who are sick in James 5.
God told Mary that she would have a Son and He would be God's Son - no earthly Father.
God spoke directly to Moses on Sinai -
Many who touched the cloth that was touched by Paul were instantly healed.
Christ walked through towns where whole villages where healed by him
Christ walked on Water, raised the dead, cast out demons, spoke to Moses and Elijah along with 3 Disciples in on the Mt of Transfiguration
Raised lazarus
Raised Himself
died for our sins
And will one day appear in the clouds of heaven, rapture the church and light the lake of fire

But there are people here who argue "IF God said it - it can not POSSIBLY be real".

As long as you keep God out there at the level of an "easter bunny" then nothing in scripture is real. Atheist darwinism for this life and the easter bunny for the life to come. And that is exactly the way that atheists would have it. They dream of the day that all christians climb down into a dark cave where only in fairytale land are the Words of God REAL.

In Romans 1 GOD says that "The Invisible attributes of God are CLEARLY SEEN in the THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE - EVEN by unbelieving PAGANS" who are turning their back on God.

But today's true believer in atheist darwinism says "hogwash - Romans 1 can not possibly be true! Only a Christian could possibly IMAGINE that the things they see WERE MADE to start with".

Their compromised position is easly "detected".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This is the part where believers in atheist darwinism (A.D) head for the hills.

Romans 1 is such a literal endorsement for I.D - all you get from A.D believers is "crickets".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Helen]

Does a seed die before it sprouts? Then why do farmers avoid planting dead seed by "proofing" their seed? Is a seed that dies in storage different than a seed that dies after falling to the ground?

Sir, the reference is allegorical. It is from a lesson. The seed itself has to split open, be cracked, be destroyed as a seed, in order to grow. It is the same with a person. Anyone who remains selfish, egotistical, know-it-all cannot possibly grow as a person. You have to give up yourself, be cracked open inside, in order to see what you really are in your selfishness, and then be able to grow away from that. I'm surprised the lesson is not obvious to you.

Do we live in a "real" physical universe or a mystical/ magical universe that only exists in the mind of God? Is God the "Matrix?" If God took a picosecond vacation would we disappear?

If God 'took a...vacation' we would indeed disappear. However the universe He created is indeed real. It is orderly because He is. It is discoverable because He allowed it to be that way. It is these very qualities of HIS which allowed men and women a thousand years ago to start divorcing themselves from the ideas of spirits in trees and rocks, and a random, violent universe, and, trusting that the world was orderly because its Creator also is, start to explore and investigate, fathering the science of the west as we know it today.

My point is that there is no common point of reference between people who think the Bible is a science text and the rest of humanity.

You are absolutely wrong on this point. The Bible mentions paths of the seas. The ocean currents were finally mapped about a hundred years ago. The Bible mentions the great springs of the deep. When were the freshwater springs in the ocean deeps discovered? In the last century. The Bible mentions that Orion is disrupting and the Pleaides are held together. That was confirmed, again, in the last hundred years. The Bible implies there are at least two populations of stars, and science caught up with that....in the last hundred years. The Bible says that the earth was divided in the days of Peleg, but plate tectonics was not even admitted until my own lifetime (I'll be 59 next week).

No, the Bible is not a science text, but it is an excellent science guide, telling us clearly in what direction the truth of things may be found.

150 years ago there was no logical procedure to test for God's micromanagement of this earth. Now we have statistical analysis. There is no evidence that "Christian" prayer is more effective than other forms of prayer and meditation. Or do we conclude that a majority of Christians are asking God for improper favors?

I think we often ask God for what is not good for us. Like children asking for candy. He knows what is best and provides exactly that for those who love Him. There is no test for love, however. You are right about that.