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Exegesis or Bible Butchery in James 2 - Pick one
- Thread starter BobRyan
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The failing case is seen in James 2 in living color. Failing faith "does not save" it is in fact "the faith of demons".
Your point is "it does not need to be saving faith - because they are already saved who have the faith of demons".
And that - is the point that has to be proven rather than merely asserted. How in the world do you expect it to be accepted without some kind of proof from scripture?
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
James 2
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "" Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,'' and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so [b]faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.[/b]
18 But someone may well say, ""You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.''
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the [b]demons also believe, and shudder.[/b]
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
James has addressed the issue of “faith that can NOT save” and has shown that this faith that can not save is – “dead faith” is “useless faith”. He points out that it is the same kind of faith demons have. So when the Bible says “By grace are you saved through FAITH” is it talking about dead faith that can not save? Some conclude that it is – others that it is not.
It is left as an exercise for the reader in this case.
James calls the faith of demons – claimed by many today - “dead faith” – Paul does not claim “By grace your are saved by dead faith without works”. And so Paul and James are in fact in perfect agreement. Those who would preach “peace and safety” to people who in fact have “dead faith” – are saying to them “yes well dead faith maybe – but still saved by grace through dead useless faith – so that is just so much MORE heaven for you my friend”
My argument is that to tell those with dead faith -- i.e the faith of demons -- that they are saved is to preach "peace and safety" to the lost. Telling them that all is well - go back to sleep -- even while the Holy Spirit is convicting them of sin and righteousness and judgment.
In Christ,
Bob
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "" Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,'' and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so [b]faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.[/b]
18 But someone may well say, ""You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.''
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the [b]demons also believe, and shudder.[/b]
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
James has addressed the issue of “faith that can NOT save” and has shown that this faith that can not save is – “dead faith” is “useless faith”. He points out that it is the same kind of faith demons have. So when the Bible says “By grace are you saved through FAITH” is it talking about dead faith that can not save? Some conclude that it is – others that it is not.
It is left as an exercise for the reader in this case.
James calls the faith of demons – claimed by many today - “dead faith” – Paul does not claim “By grace your are saved by dead faith without works”. And so Paul and James are in fact in perfect agreement. Those who would preach “peace and safety” to people who in fact have “dead faith” – are saying to them “yes well dead faith maybe – but still saved by grace through dead useless faith – so that is just so much MORE heaven for you my friend”
My argument is that to tell those with dead faith -- i.e the faith of demons -- that they are saved is to preach "peace and safety" to the lost. Telling them that all is well - go back to sleep -- even while the Holy Spirit is convicting them of sin and righteousness and judgment.
In Christ,
Bob
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Bob talk about making an assertion. Dead faith is not equated to the faith of demons. You are making that connection not the text.
Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth Bob? I have never said this. I haven't even implied this. I said the audience of James' letter was saved individuals. James 1 makes this abundantly clear. So the context of James is NOT eternal salvation. So James chapter 2 is obviously talking about being saved from something that is different that what a person is saved from at the moment of by grace through faith.
Bob I have give you all kinds of proof from Scripture. You just don't like what it is saying so you keep trying to work your way around it. It is what it is and it says what it says, so we can either accept it even though it may not be what we have always believed or what our favorite Bible teacher has taught us, but Scripture says what it says and we have to accept it for that.
Agreed.
I would agree that demons' faith is useless. It does them no good to believe God is one God.
This is where you start walking down the Bob trail instead of Scripture. The faith that is in view in James is not the same faith that is in view in Ephesians 2. That is the point that I have been trying to get you to see. Ephesians is talking about eternal saving faith. James is talking about a present faith that is beyond eternal saving faith. You are mixing contexts. While you are comparing Scripture with Scripture you are actually pitting Scripture against Scripture because you are taking a passage that is talking about apples and you are comparing it with a Scripture that is talking about oranges.
They aren't in agreement in these two passages that you are using because they aren't talking about the same faith. Therefore they are not to be compared to each other. However Paul does agree with James, because he preaches the same message that works are to follow after salvation and if they don't then there will be consquences both here in this life and the age to come. So in that respect yes they are in agreement.
Well I do agree that there are Christians that do preach what you have advocated, but I do not agree with it, because it is just as untrue as what you are selling wtih all due respect. That message is preached to the peril of those that hear and believe. There will be consequences for the disobedient, unfaithful, non-overcoming Christian and it will be more than simply losing a reward or rewards that might have been. And unfortunately we can see the fruits of the preaching of peace and safety. We now have a church that is sick, dying, naked and full of shame, but yet it says that it is just the opposite.
But your argument is moot because you are saying that dead faith is equal to unsaved in an eternal sense and that's not what the text says. It is preaching peace and safety to the lost, but not in an eternal sense. The Bible clearly teaches that eternal salvation is a one-time event not a life long process. And what you are contending for is a life long process that at the end if you have believed the right thing and done the right things you will be saved. But that's just not what the Bible teaches.
I would agree with this point. It is time Christians woke up from their slumber or that day is going to overtake them like a thief in the night.
Bob I say this with all due respect. I applaud you for seeing the "problems" of Christendom. However I think you have over corrected in trying to preach against them just as I believe Luther went too far when he saw a works-based salvation message back in the day.
It's good to see the problem, but we have to let Scripture answer the problem not overcorrect what Scripture says.
J. Jump said:av1611jim I have a question for you. It seems that there are a couple of folks here that have jumped on the bandwagon of support for what you have said. However, these two are not even in agreement as to what you have said as far as I can tell
So would you mind clarifying your post some for us. From your post are you saying that a person with a dead faith was never saved in the first place? Are you saying that a person with a dead faith is still saved?
A followup question . . . if you believe that a person is eternally saved, but has a dead faith what does that look like? What are the results of having a life lived with dead (non-fruit producing) faith?
You say that James is telling a person of faith that if they have faith to prove it. What type of faith are they supposed to be proving? Are they supposed to prove their faith in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, or are they supposed to prove their faith in Jesus as the Christ, the Annointed King?
I agree with the statement you made, but am looking for some clarification on what you mean by it.
Thanks in advance for your time and clarification.
Frankly I thought my comments were quite clear. But in order to answer your follow-up questions we need to look elsewhere since James does not address those questions. And we really should stay on topic according to the OP. This is about a particular passage in James.
James is talking about the kind of faith which PROFITS a man. Eternal salvation cannot be said to be to our profit. It is a debt we owe which was paid by Christ. Debt and profit are diametrically opposed to one another, are they not? Therefore; faith which is spoken of by Paul in Ephesians (2:8-9) has debt as its basis. But James here in 2:14 speaks of the kind of faith which brings profit. And THAT is the kind of faith James is addressing. The kind of faith which will bring us profit. So then what exactly is this profit-faith which we are supposed to demonstrate and why? We have to go all the way to James 5 to get the answer for that one.
James 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
Profit faith is the kind which DOES something. Debt faith is the kind which believes something/Someone.
THE COMING OF THE LORD!!! Now that begs the question. Why should we DO all the things James tells believers to do since Jesus is coming? We need to go to other Scriptures for that one also. But let me paraphrase. Behold He cometh with ten thousands of His saints and His reward is with Him. Reward! We must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ. Be not ashamed at His coming. Can 'dead faith" save a man from this? No! A thousand times no! But we are talking about believers! So obviously if he is at the JSOC then he IS A SAVED MAN is he not? Therefore this man must DO something as James uses his entire letter to tell us. One must read the entire letter. James is advising his readers to live a Christan life because the coming of the LORD draweth nigh.
Like I said. Ya take something out of context and you end up with a mess. As evidenced by the ---church and the ---church and the ---church. (happy Bob R? Didn't mention any one by name just for you.)
Paul tells us the same thing in many of his letters also. He just doesn't used the same words all in the same place. Unfortunately (or Providentially) James did. So we have folks wresting the Scriptures to their own destruction, while others are wise and study to shew themselves approved.
Bottom line? Jesus is coming soon so you had better be LIVING like it since you will stand before Him and give account for the gift He has given you and IF you have wasted it or it has not produced fruit then you will not be saved from the Law of Sowing and Reaping which all men are bound by. Obviously if you are at the Judgment Seat of Christ and not at the Great White Throne then you must have placed you debt-faith in Him at some point in you life. But He is interested in your profit-faith at that time. Don't believe it? Read the word picture He gave us in Matt 25.
See? See? I TOLD you we would have to go to other Scriptures for the WHOLE truth. James is not isolated from Scripture. His letter is PART of the WHOLE!!!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
My point is "Can that faith SAVE" is an explicit reference to salvation. It is the SAME faith that ACCEPTS Christ - that WALKS in Christ.
"AS you have RECEIVED Christ Jesus so WALK in him" Col 2.
John states this as well as 1John 2 "The one that SAYS He knows Christ ought to also to WALK in him" and if he does not then the person who SAYS he knows Christ "is lying" according to John.
So while it is true that JUSTIFICATION PAST (as we see in Romans 5:1) is different from the "WILL BE Justified" future context of Romans 2:13 and James 2 "Justified by works and not by faith alone" -- it is still the SAME person who was already saved "past tense" in "Justification past".
The salvation state does not change simply because the objective form of Justification SHOWS that you are saved.
But the point some are arguing is that the objective form of justification (the one referenced in James 2) can say you are NOT saved while the past form still insists that you are... something that seems to be denied in James 2 "can that faith save him" and Christ denies it in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord" and John denies it in 1John 2 saying that such a person is "lying".
In Christ,
Bob
"AS you have RECEIVED Christ Jesus so WALK in him" Col 2.
John states this as well as 1John 2 "The one that SAYS He knows Christ ought to also to WALK in him" and if he does not then the person who SAYS he knows Christ "is lying" according to John.
So while it is true that JUSTIFICATION PAST (as we see in Romans 5:1) is different from the "WILL BE Justified" future context of Romans 2:13 and James 2 "Justified by works and not by faith alone" -- it is still the SAME person who was already saved "past tense" in "Justification past".
The salvation state does not change simply because the objective form of Justification SHOWS that you are saved.
But the point some are arguing is that the objective form of justification (the one referenced in James 2) can say you are NOT saved while the past form still insists that you are... something that seems to be denied in James 2 "can that faith save him" and Christ denies it in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord" and John denies it in 1John 2 saying that such a person is "lying".
In Christ,
Bob
Bob how many times does it have to be said James is not speaking of eternal saving faith. That is not the context. You are wrestling James out of the context that he intended to try and "prove" "your" doctrine to be true.
If James is talking about eternal saving faith then that contradicts what some of the rest of Scripture says about eternal saving faith. Because other Scripture says it is a one-time event that once it is complete it is complete forever without change. But James says that this faith is a lifetime thing that can change, so it becomes a process.
So we are only left with one option and that is this is a faith that is mixed with works that produces the salvation of the soul, not eternal salvation. To see it any other way is to introduce unexplainable contradictions that do not belong in the Word of God.
It really is that simple.
If James is talking about eternal saving faith then that contradicts what some of the rest of Scripture says about eternal saving faith. Because other Scripture says it is a one-time event that once it is complete it is complete forever without change. But James says that this faith is a lifetime thing that can change, so it becomes a process.
So we are only left with one option and that is this is a faith that is mixed with works that produces the salvation of the soul, not eternal salvation. To see it any other way is to introduce unexplainable contradictions that do not belong in the Word of God.
It really is that simple.
J. Jump said:
I might add that in order for Bob ryan to be correct with his interpretation then he would have to toss all of 1 John out the window. Particularly THIS passage:
1 John 5:13-15 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
Present possession. We HAVE eternal life. No works can change it otherwise it is NOT eternal to begin with. It was only temporary.
James is not addressing salvation in eternity. He is addressing salvation at the coming of Christ. Salvation from what then? From being ashamed at His coming. From receiving for the bad done in the body. From being a castaway. From losing your soul. From having a portion WITH the hypocrites. From being beaten and cast into prison. From having that which you have taken and given to another.
You all recognize these things. You have read them yourselves. Now, just understand them.
The entire book of James is about HOW to live a Christian life BECAUSE the Lord's coming is near. And you should not be ashamed at His coming.
Who is ashamed? A child who has displeased his parent maybe? A child who has done wrong and is facing his parent and expecting correction maybe? Just maybe?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
av1611jim said:
In order for me to be incorrect I would have to toss all of 1 John out the window.
]1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[/b]
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and [b]does not keep His commandments, is a liar[/b], and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word[/b], in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]
For my view to be wrong someone would need to eisegete the idea of "lying but saved" in 1John 2.
Something that John does not support at all.
For my view to be wrong someone would need to eisegete the idea of
"the good tree with wicked fruit" in Matt 7 -- something Christ flatly denies.
To be wrong someone would need to "invent" the idea of "faith that does not save -- that SAVES anyway" in James 2.
Indeed "THESE THINGS" which include 1John 2 telling us that the one who CLAIMS to know Christ is in fact lying if they do not WALK as Christ walked.
An inconvenient detail in the text of 1John to be sure -- but one worth paying attention to.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
nothing in all of scripture supporte the wild conjecture "saved but lost". There is no scripture at all in support of such self-conflicted contradictory suppositions.
When James speaks of "salvation" he "really means it". He does not mean to say that "demons are lost but still saved". He does not mean that "faith that can not save SAVES ANYWAY".
When we say "by faith are you SAVED through faith " we are speaking of the right view of faith - the one that stands up to the rule of Christ in Matt 7 and does as HE predicts it will do.
For as Scripture says
Col 2
4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument.
5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
Yet how often are many deluded by persuasive argument that we do NOT walk in Christ in faith JUST AS we receieved Him - rather we are "lost but saved" in strict violation of the text.
Such a deception -- so Paul must repeatedly urge throughout the NT "be not deceived".
1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers,will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
You have to ask yourself who kept "deceiving them" about the idea that rebellion would welcomed in Gospel salvation.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
J. Jump said:
Repeating a point of conjecture does not make it appear suddenly "in" the text.
Here is what James 2 says
James 2
17 Even so [b]faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.[/B]
18 But someone may well say, ""You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.''
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the [b]demons also believe, and shudder.[/B]
20 But are you willing to recognize, you [b]foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?[/B]
hmm "dead faith" and "foolish to think it is anything but useless"
this is not "saved by grace through useless faith" though some seem to think of it that way.
Actually no text says that.
But the problem is if you insert a false idea into some other text -- then come to this one where you admit "it is not here" and insert it here "too" because of the insert made to other texts - it is eisegesis that builds flaw built upon flaw.
#1. You should not insert prior bias into James 2 even if it were correct. you have to let James 2 "speak" and without wrenching it for some other goal.
#2. There is no text that states "OSAS" not in all of scripture so why stand James 2 on it's head?
In Christ,
Bob
And neither does isolating Scripture from other Scripture prove your point. But unfortunately you don't stop there you try to say that you compare Scripture with Scripture, but you compare a Scripture that is talking about apples and one that is talking about oranges and then you say see I am right. But that doesn't make you right either.
Let me give you an example and then we truly have come to an end in productive conversation (because you have resorted back to your read and green cutouts
).You are comparing eternal saving faith to sanctifiying faith. They are not the same thing. James talks about a faith that works, but Paul talks about grace through faith apart from works. Those two texts are not comparable, because they aren't talking about the same thing.
One says you must have works and the other says that it is apart from works. Try as you might there is NO WAY to make those verses talk about the same thing.
But what you are doing is just seeing the word faith and saying ah well that text has faith and this text has faith they must be talking about the same thing. That's mixing contexts. Context is king, and you have just thrown it into the garbage heap.
Actually Ephesians 2:8-9 does (says you have been saved - completed action) and so does Acts 16:30-31. It says believe (aorist tense) and you will be saved. That doesn't mean believe now and continue to believe the rest of your life and you will be saved at the end of the journey. It means believe right now and you will be saved.
Bob the only false idea being imposed onto a text is you saying that James is talking about eternal saving faith. He tells us in the first chapter that he is talking to folks that are already saved. How can it be more simple to see?
Bob comparing like Scripture with like Scripture is not inserting a bias into James 2. Knowing the difference between eternal saving faith and sanctifying faith is not iserting a bias into Scripture. It is merely allowing the context of the text tell us what the words mean instead of imposing our own definitions onto words to get them to mean what we want them to mean.
Bob that's just not true. Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that. It says you have been saved. The langauge used there is a perfect tense, which means the action has been completed in the past and is once and for all never needing to be repeated. Acts 16:30-31 says believe and you will be saved. It doesn't say believe and then you'll be saved until you stop believing or until you commit unrepentant adultery or murder or lie too many times or whatever scenario you want to throw into the mix.
Scripture is very plain and very clear that once you are saved there is NOTHING that is going to change that. NOTHING. Period.
BobRyan said:
Nice little dance there Bob. Do you disco also?:laugh:
You COMPLETELY ignored the text I posted. You ignored the Word of God calling you out. You ignored everything JJump and I have been telling you.
On the other hand , both JJ and I know full well the game you are playing with Scripture. We have seen it time and again by the works+fatih = salvation people. Oh you may holler and stamp your foot saying you believe in saving faith by grace but you do not really believe it. You are dishonestly trying to make the Scripture support your doctrine and it cannot.
Now; try again. John tells us you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life. He goes on to tell us that we may KNOW that we HAVE what we ask of God within His will. If we KNOW it is His will we be saved, then we can KNOW that we HAVE it when we ASK for it.
But you say the opposite. Who is lying? You or Scripture?
Show me ONE place James mentions faith in the finished work of Christ. One place he talks about the shed blood of christ. One place he talks about the resurrection of Christ. Just ONE Bob!!!!
Paul is very plain as to what the gospel is.You can read it in 1 Cor 15. Show me ONE place in James you can find the same.
Since you and I both know you will not find what I am asking you to find and show me: your entire argument falls by the wayside; hence this discussion has reached impasse.
:BangHead: :BangHead: :wavey:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Hey Jim - you ignored 1John 2 calling you out. You completely ignored 1John 2:4-7 saying that "he is a liar" that claims to KNOW Christ and yet does not walk as Christ walked!!
You pretend that "Assurance" in 1john has "nothing to do with THESE THINGS I HAVE WRITTEN" as John says. you pretend it says "THESE THINGS I have written that you may IGNORE THEM and not be aware of who is lying when they CLAIM to have known Christ ... rather you may be assured ANYWAY no matter WHAT you find written here to the contrary"
Where in the world did you dig up such a text Jim? Why not pay attention to the one that you actually quoted?
I do not question "THAt you may KNOW you have eternal life" I question your turning a blind eye to "THESE THINGS I HAVE WRITTEN THAT you may know" and then further ignoring 1John 2 "The one that SAYS He KNOWS Christ but does not walk as Christ walked is a liar".. because "obviously" that is part of the "THESE THINGS" that John WROTE in 1John.
Just stating the obvious here - but that seems to be the part of the text of scripture that displeases you - so you blame ME for it as if I had written it! How "surprising".
in Christ,
Bob
You pretend that "Assurance" in 1john has "nothing to do with THESE THINGS I HAVE WRITTEN" as John says. you pretend it says "THESE THINGS I have written that you may IGNORE THEM and not be aware of who is lying when they CLAIM to have known Christ ... rather you may be assured ANYWAY no matter WHAT you find written here to the contrary"
Where in the world did you dig up such a text Jim? Why not pay attention to the one that you actually quoted?
I do not question "THAt you may KNOW you have eternal life" I question your turning a blind eye to "THESE THINGS I HAVE WRITTEN THAT you may know" and then further ignoring 1John 2 "The one that SAYS He KNOWS Christ but does not walk as Christ walked is a liar".. because "obviously" that is part of the "THESE THINGS" that John WROTE in 1John.
Just stating the obvious here - but that seems to be the part of the text of scripture that displeases you - so you blame ME for it as if I had written it! How "surprising".
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
av1611jim said:
Paul calls what you are doing above "another gospel" in Gal 1:5-9 inventing the idea of ANOTHER Faith and ANOTHER salvation.
In 1 Cor 3 Paul says "NO FOUNDATION" can be laid other than Christ but here YOU argue for FAITH in something OTHER THAN CHRIST as the faith that "SAVES".
How transparent sir.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I point out IN THE TEXT that James says that this "useless faith" is the "faith of demons" and that your "SAVED WHILE LOST" idea is NOT found in James 2 at all
Quote:
Surely you can not be fully satisified with such a non-Bible defense for your argument!
Let's go back to using Exegesis - exegete THE TEXT instead of simply abusing it in favor of another mythical (as yet unquoted) text that leads you not to pay attention to the details IN the text of James 2 as you insert the idea that "the faith of demons" is saving faith "anyway".
in Christ,
Bob
Quote:
Your insightful reponse is to complain that I AM referencing the details IN THE text of scripture while you insist that we NOT look at James 2 to know what James is talking about AND to complain that the text font I am using - has color in it!!
J Jump said
And neither does isolating Scripture from other Scripture prove your point. But unfortunately you don't stop there you try to say that you compare Scripture with Scripture, but you compare a Scripture that is talking about apples and one that is talking about oranges and then you say see I am right. But that doesn't make you right either.
Let me give you an example and then we truly have come to an end in productive conversation (because you have resorted back to your read and green cutouts
Surely you can not be fully satisified with such a non-Bible defense for your argument!
Let's go back to using Exegesis - exegete THE TEXT instead of simply abusing it in favor of another mythical (as yet unquoted) text that leads you not to pay attention to the details IN the text of James 2 as you insert the idea that "the faith of demons" is saving faith "anyway".
in Christ,
Bob