Exegesis or Bible Butchery in James 2 - Pick one

[BobRyan]

Quote:
But the problem is if you insert a false idea into some other text -- then come to this one where you admit "it is not here" and insert it here "too" because of the insert made to other texts - it is eisegesis that builds flaw built upon flaw.

Bob the only false idea being imposed onto a text is you saying that James is talking about eternal saving faith. He tells us in the first chapter that he is talking to folks that are already saved. How can it be more simple to see?

James 1 NEVER claims that ALL examples of failure (including that of demons) HAS to be the act of a SAVED person!!

James 1 NEVER claims that ALL members of a local church ARE SAVED!

James 1 NEVER says that "I am writing to you that have useless faith -- the faith of demons - to tell you that this is in fact the FAITH by which we are saved under the conditions of SAVED by Grace THROUGH Faith".

It is not done in James 1 NOR in all of scripture!

Your idea of "two Salvations" and "TWO Faiths" is in fact "TWO Gospels".

James makes NO MENTION of two salvations - so you insert it.
James makes NO MENTION of "two faiths" - so you insert it.
James makes NO MENTION of "SAVED while not having faith that saves" -- so you insert it.

This is classic abuse of the text to take what James DOES mention "the faith of demons" the "faith that does NOT save and IS useless" and spinning it around with the "inserts" you make to the text.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

James 2:17-26 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. ... For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

If a person were to approach this passage honestly it would be an easy thing to figure out.
Notice what James says in the last sentence of the passage. The body without the spirit is dead. Think about it. You are alive and animated. Why? Your spirit is still IN you. Your spirit is what gives life to your body and proves you are alive.
Then notice his conclusion. Even so...faith without works is dead. Just like your pysical body without a spriit can do nothing and is useless, EVEN SO...your faith is useless without SOMETHING that proves it is alive.

Paul bears this out when he says the just shall live BY faith. Faith is the live giving element which produces the action. No faith, no life. If there is no life (works/action) present then there is no faith. It is dead.

James says in effect; you say you have fatih? Prove it.

After showing ACCEPTANCE of James 2 -- Jim turns around to deny it all by inventing the idea "of TWO Faiths".

But in the quote Above Jim inwittingly admits that this is NO FAITH!!

(As is seen in the highlights).

And now he is stuck with "saved by grace through NO FAITH" so he must "invent" another faith, AND another salvation -- i.e. "another gospel".

How sad after such a good noble start to turn back on it!!

Jim said -
James uses Abraham as a perfect example because prior to Abraham offering Isaac, the Scripture says Abraham believed God and righteousness was imputed to him. This righteousness came about without works, but his justification came about when his faith PRODUCED action which demonstrated that indeed Abraham did indeed believe God.

Here Jim admits that this is REAL faith IN GOD -- not simply "ANOTHER faith" that is "optional". Rather it is the life that SHOWS that REAL faith in God EXISTS.

The "Saved ANYWAY even though the life shows nothing but DEAD faith" is not in James - is not in all of scripture -- so Jim makes it up after having done so well on this post.

How sad.

Jim you were doing so well - how is it then that you have fallen on your sword on this one?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

Shiloh posted; bulid a whole doctrine

Thats it Bob, you are BULIB a whole doctrine.

Just thought I would throw that in there, for He belittled, His Blood Spoke My Name, before for a typo, got a big laugh from another poster.

 

[BobRyan]

I like the idea that creating erroneous doctrines is to BULID false doctrine - who better to point that out than SHiloh!!:laugh:

What a great catch Bob - thanks! Long live the TYPO!!:applause:

Though I have to tell you - the times when Shiloh IS modeling Christian attributes on this board have been the exception not the rule so far - so the incident you are referencing does not really stand out as surprising in the least. In fact - it might be a sign of improvement.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Just testing a theory out on those who invent this idea of "Soul lost WHILE spirit is saved" --

For those like Jim and J. Jump that DO believe that -- what is your position on the Bible doctrine of perseverance of the saints? Do you accept or reject it?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[av1611jim]

Just testing a theory out on those who invent this idea of "Soul lost WHILE spirit is saved" --

For those like Jim and J. Jump that DO believe that -- what is your position on the Bible doctrine of perseverance of the saints? Do you accept or reject it?

In Christ,

Bob

Different subject, different thread. Put your gun away and stop
hijacking this one.

 

[av1611jim]

After showing ACCEPTANCE of James 2 -- Jim turns around to deny it all by inventing the idea "of TWO Faiths".

But in the quote Above Jim inwittingly admits that this is NO FAITH!!

(As is seen in the highlights).

And now he is stuck with "saved by grace through NO FAITH" so he must "invent" another faith, AND another salvation -- i.e. "another gospel".

How sad after such a good noble start to turn back on it!!



Here Jim admits that this is REAL faith IN GOD -- not simply "ANOTHER faith" that is "optional". Rather it is the life that SHOWS that REAL faith in God EXISTS.

The "Saved ANYWAY even though the life shows nothing but DEAD faith" is not in James - is not in all of scripture -- so Jim makes it up after having done so well on this post.

How sad.

Jim you were doing so well - how is it then that you have fallen on your sword on this one?

In Christ,

Bob

You ARE a disco dancer aren't you Bob? :BangHead: :BangHead:

I know how JJ feels now. You sure have a way of twisting a persons words and putting your own into their mouths.

Did Ellen G. White teach you this?

 

[BobRyan]

You ARE a disco dancer aren't you Bob? :BangHead: :BangHead:

{Jim's obligatory ranting deleted here)..

You have a funny way of collapsing when your argument runs aground Jim.

I guess that just leaves me with the open door of continually reminding you of the point where you made your blunder.

Coming up.

Enjoy. As I am sure you must have a zillion ways to "rant rather than respond to the point".

See post 62 and "respond to the point" rather than ducking -- it is on THIS page still.

Need help? http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=949661&postcount=62

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Jim said
James is not addressing salvation in eternity. He is addressing salvation at the coming of Christ. Salvation from what then? From being ashamed at His coming. From receiving for the bad done in the body. From being a castaway. From losing your soul. From having a portion WITH the hypocrites. From being beaten and cast into prison. From having that which you have taken and given to another.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=949426&postcount=51

Here Jim DOES jump in the ditch of "soul lost while spirit saved"

Bob said
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Just testing a theory out on those who invent this idea of "Soul lost WHILE spirit is saved" --

For those like Jim and J. Jump that DO believe that -- what is your position on the Bible doctrine of perseverance of the saints? Do you accept or reject it?

In Christ,

Bob

but when called on this Jim pretends not to have read HIS OWN post...

Different subject, different thread. Put your gun away and stop
hijacking this one.

Stop "gaming the thread" Jim - and start responding to the points raised - even when it places you in a position of having to admit to your own blunders. The question above was not to "debate perseverence" it was to try to find out "What problem you think you solve" by inventing things out of thin air (like soul LOST while spirit still saved). I am just proposing that this may be an attempt to solve the Perseverance problem for those who reject that Bible doctrine.

Why not answer the question instead of rabbit-trailing and misdirecting?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Since Jim is on the record on this thread as "getting something right" I wanted to be sure everyone had the link -- so

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=945813&postcount=22

Originally Posted by av1611jim
James 2:17-26 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. ... For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

If a person were to approach this passage honestly it would be an easy thing to figure out.
Notice what James says in the last sentence of the passage. The body without the spirit is dead. Think about it. You are alive and animated. Why? Your spirit is still IN you. Your spirit is what gives life to your body and proves you are alive.
Then notice his conclusion. Even so...faith without works is dead. Just like your pysical body without a spriit can do nothing and is useless, EVEN SO...your faith is useless without SOMETHING that proves it is alive.

Paul bears this out when he says the just shall live BY faith. Faith is the live giving element which produces the action. No faith, no life. If there is no life (works/action) present then there is no faith. It is dead.

James says in effect; you say you have fatih? Prove it.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=945813&postcount=22

After showing ACCEPTANCE of James 2 -- Jim turns around to deny it all by inventing the idea "of TWO Faiths".

But in the quote Above Jim inwittingly admits that this is NO FAITH!!

(As is seen in the highlights).

And now he is stuck with "saved by grace through NO FAITH" so he must "invent" another faith, AND another salvation -- i.e. "another gospel".

How sad after such a good noble start to turn back on it!!

Jim said -
James uses Abraham as a perfect example because prior to Abraham offering Isaac, the Scripture says Abraham believed God and righteousness was imputed to him. This righteousness came about without works, but his justification came about when his faith PRODUCED action which demonstrated that indeed Abraham did indeed believe God.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=945813&postcount=22

Here Jim admits that this is REAL faith IN GOD -- not simply "ANOTHER faith" that is "optional". Rather it is the life that SHOWS that REAL faith in God EXISTS.

The "Saved ANYWAY even though the life shows nothing but DEAD faith" is not in James - is not in all of scripture -- so Jim makes it up after having done so well on this post.

How sad.

Jim you were doing so well - how is it then that you have fallen on your sword on this one?

(this time posted with the links to Jim's initial statements above)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[bmerr]

BobR,

bmerr here. I've not taken the time to read through all the posts, but I've seen enough to realize that approaching the subject from a different angle might help. I'd also like to commend you for the open-mindedness with which you seem to have tackled this oft-avoided or exitgeted :laugh: text.

Most of the posts so far seem to be circling around the "faith" aspect of James 2, "what kind of faith", "spirit-saving but not soul-saving faith", and such like, and, sadly (though not suprisingly) not much progress seems to have been made. Lots of heat, not much light.

This may have been covered already, and if so, forgive me for bringing it up again, but maybe we should identify the kind of works James is speaking of, since so many seem to object to works being a part of God's plan of salvation.

First off, we all know that both Paul and James use Abraham as an example of salvation, justification, or righteousness by faith. Paul clearly speaks of justification by faith apart from the "works of the law" (Rom 3:28, etc). Paul also states that our salvation is not because of our own righteous works (Titus 3:5).

Since both Paul and James were inspired by the same Spirit, we know that James cannot be speaking of either of these two types of works. Agreed so far?

When Abraham offered Isaac, the Mosaic Law had not yet been given, so it was not a work of the Law, nor is offering one's son as a whole burnt offering something that would be considered a "good deed" to score brownie points with God, so neither of the above mentioned classes of works is involved here.

So what kind of work was it for Abraham to offer Isaac? Simply obedience to God's command. It's the only kind left to consider as far as I can tell.

Since Heb 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey him, we know that obedience is neccessary. This would fit right in with both Paul and James. It's the only way I know of to make sense of the passage without doing it harm.

For your consideration.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[av1611jim]

bmerr;
While it is not the ONLY way to make sense of this passage, I will agree with you that it is a viable interpretation. And it does no violence to the remainder of Scripture either.

Good thinking! (thumbs up!)

Yes. Obedience is necessary for anyone who claims the name of Christ.

 

[av1611jim]

Since Jim is on the record on this thread as "getting something right" I wanted to be sure everyone had the link -- so

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=945813&postcount=22


[/i]


After showing ACCEPTANCE of James 2 -- Jim turns around to deny it all by inventing the idea "of TWO Faiths".

But in the quote Above Jim inwittingly admits that this is NO FAITH!!

(As is seen in the highlights).

And now he is stuck with "saved by grace through NO FAITH" so he must "invent" another faith, AND another salvation -- i.e. "another gospel".

How sad after such a good noble start to turn back on it!!





Here Jim admits that this is REAL faith IN GOD -- not simply "ANOTHER faith" that is "optional". Rather it is the life that SHOWS that REAL faith in God EXISTS.

The "Saved ANYWAY even though the life shows nothing but DEAD faith" is not in James - is not in all of scripture -- so Jim makes it up after having done so well on this post.

How sad.

Jim you were doing so well - how is it then that you have fallen on your sword on this one?

(this time posted with the links to Jim's initial statements above)

In Christ,

Bob

Bob;
When you admit to lying I will continue this discussion.

You have put YOUR words in quotation marks as if they were mine or jjump's thereby indicating we said those things. Stop misrepresenting people and we can have a civil discussion.

Nobody here said any kind of faith is optional. Nobody here said one is saved by grace through no faith.

Stop lying. And leave Ellen G. White's cult. Cultists lie and twist words.

 

[BobRyan]

This may have been covered already, and if so, forgive me for bringing it up again, but maybe we should identify the kind of works James is speaking of, since so many seem to object to works being a part of God's plan of salvation.

First off, we all know that both Paul and James use Abraham as an example of salvation, justification, or righteousness by faith. Paul clearly speaks of justification by faith apart from the "works of the law" (Rom 3:28, etc). Paul also states that our salvation is not because of our own righteous works (Titus 3:5).

Since both Paul and James were inspired by the same Spirit, we know that James cannot be speaking of either of these two types of works. Agreed so far?

When Abraham offered Isaac, the Mosaic Law had not yet been given, so it was not a work of the Law, nor is offering one's son as a whole burnt offering something that would be considered a "good deed" to score brownie points with God, so neither of the above mentioned classes of works is involved here.

So what kind of work was it for Abraham to offer Isaac? Simply obedience to God's command. It's the only kind left to consider as far as I can tell.

Since Heb 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey him, we know that obedience is neccessary. This would fit right in with both Paul and James. It's the only way I know of to make sense of the passage without doing it harm.

You are right in that Paul always uses the term "Works of the Law" (as we see in Romans 3) to mean "Works APART from Faith" - and so it is always "bad" in the NT.

But you are wrong to think that the writings of Moses is anything OTHER than "the commands of God" such that obedience to that text of scripture is anything OTHER than "obedience to the commands of God".

You are also wrong to conclude that Abraham was not subject to the "Laws, statutes and commands" of God just as God placed Israel in subjection to His "Laws, statutes and commands".

God says of BOTH Abraham AND Israel that they were to keep His "Laws, statutes and commandments". The difference is not that Moses gave inferior laws based on works and that God gives Laws that Christians can obey -- rather God is the Author of ALL scripture and ALL His Word is to be Obeyed "For scripture can not be broken" John 10:35.

The difference is that "Works of the Law" by definition (according to Romans 3) is "Works apart from faith".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Jim - three posts from you and still you have nothing stubstantive to say on the subject while fleeing from your own post earlier on this thread ....

That is a new low for you sir.

Join the topic or simply read.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It is always amazing to me that there are those who will bend scripture to any extreme to sustaing their own devotion to man-made tradition.

Why is this so popular among Christians today?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

AV1611jim:

"....Stop lying. And leave Ellen G. White's cult. Cultists lie and twist words.....")

GE:

I am a staunch opposer of EG White's, but I assure you here this day, if but the SDA Church listened to her, they might have discovered the Gospel by now. What pity they actually despised their own profetess all these years!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

bmerr:

"Since Heb 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey him, we know that obedience is neccessary"

GE:

In fact, obedience is necessary for and unto good works, Christ being the Author of eternal salvation.
The saved are the only who experience the urgency of good works; the unsaved do not bother, or at best, take a try at it out of humanistic considerations.
Good works never creates the basis for salvation; it always follow like the good tree's fruit. The roots and stems and leaves work together to produce the fruit - good works.
The fruit doesn't make the tree; but the fruit do, 'make the tree' like the bird's feathers, do 'make the bird'.