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Featured Faith is a Good Work we do after being created in Christ !

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by savedbymercy, Jun 16, 2015.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Eph 2:8-10

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Its been my testimony of the Truth, that Faith and or the act of believing is nothing short of being a work that is done by us, which is based upon a simple understanding of the word work found in our text, which is the greek word ergon :

    work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.

    The word action means:

    A process or condition of acting or moving, as opposed to rest; the doing of something; exertion of power or force, as when one body acts on another; the effect of power exerted on one body by another; agency; activity; operation; as, the action of heat; a man of action.
    One wise in council, one in action brave.

    An act; a thing done; a deed; an enterprise

    Now what reasonable individual can deny that ones act of believing is a thing done by them ? Its a action that man does; Remember the Jailor that asked Paul this Acts 16:30

    And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

    The word do here means a plan or course of action, a work !

    Paul responded in Vs 31

    And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house

    So to believe on Christ is something man here is told TO DO, in fact it was to him what is called an imperative, an imperative to do to be saved !

    So once again a work is something done by the individual ! Now when it comes to Salvation, getting Saved, man is not saved by any work that he does, even if its a good work done by him, Titus 3:5

    Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;

    That word done is the same greek word for do in Acts 16:30, the word used by the Jailor !

    Eph 2:9 of our text is most clear to this point Eph 2:9

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The ISV reads:

    and not the result of actions, to put a stop to all boasting.

    Salvation simply put is not the results of actions done by us, that would make it a work !

    Lest any man should boast ! This also means lest the person even has a chance or opportunity to boast, whether they did or not, but be advided we men are by nature boasters Rom 1:30; 2 Tim 3:2

    In fact Salvation is so much not of works [our actions] its simply impossible for anyone to boast about attaining it !

    See whether or not we say it, when we believe that we got saved, based on our act of believing [something done by us] versus someone who didnt get saved, because of their refusal to believe, then thats subtlety admitting to a superior virtue or wisdom, or prudence, in that as we they had the same opportunity or chance to believe but they didnt , and so my superior wisdom is what gave me the advantage [not Gods Spirit and Grace and Power] over that one, i exercised[put into action] a natural quality that has given me a favorable outcome, which outcome they could have had if they did what I did !

    Then our believing and its results [getting saved] becomes our accomplishment, hence my salvation came into fruition, was acquired, completed, brought to pass by my natural ability, the ability of their mind and or heart !
     
    #1 savedbymercy, Jun 16, 2015
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Faith is a Good Work we do after being created in Christ !2

    Once again one of the definitions of ergon/ the word work in strongs concordance greek # 2041 is:

    any product whatever, anything accomplished by hand, art, industry, mind

    Notice anything accomplished by the #1. Hand, #2. Art, #3. Industry, and #4. Mind !

    The mind is defind as:

    The intellectual or rational faculty in man; the understanding; the intellect; the power that conceives, judges, or reasons; also, the entire spiritual nature; the soul; - often in distinction from the body.
    By the mind of man we understand that in him which thinks, remembers, reasons, wills.

    The state, at any given time, of the faculties of thinking, willing, choosing, and the like; psychical activity or state;

    Physical activity is work !

    Now understand something, The Mind and Heart in scripture are virtually the same, for example Prov 23:7

    7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

    The word heart here means:

    inner man, mind, will, heart

    Now lets look at a passage that is very popular in mans religion Rom 10:9-10 and in both of these scriptures the word Heart is found Rom 10:9-10

    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    The greek word for heart kardia means:

    the heart; mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.

    Do you see the word mind there ? So what false religion is saying by appealing to this passage, they are saying God saves them because of the doing or the accompishment of their mind, which again , a definition for ergon work is:

    any product whatever, anything accomplished by hand, art, industry, mind

    Thats their believing, and thats boasting, its Salvation based upon a mans works, their inner desire intention, purpose !

     
    #2 savedbymercy, Jun 16, 2015
  3. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    :thumbs:

    Amen, it's by Grace through faith, to say faith alone would be preaching salvation by works, because faith is believing and believing is a work of man.
     
    #3 Robert William, Jun 16, 2015
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Faith is a Good Work we do after being created in Christ !3

    Now what makes this boast of theirs especially evil, its because this is an accomplishment an act done with their natural man and heart, even while they are spiritually dead, and in the flesh, with an evil heart by nature Jer 17:9

    9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    Gen 6:5

    5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    But heres the Truth, and yes some men do believe, but its after he is a New Creation Eph 2:10, for God Created him in Christ Jesus unto good works unto good works, in which one of those good works to be done by the New Creature is to believe, have Faith, that is perhaps the first good work done after being created anew by and in Christ Jesus, which good wok gives evidence of having been saved by Christ. It has been destined beforehand that the New Creature should walk in the good work of Faith, because the promise is, the Just shall live by Faith, made Just by the Faithfulness of Jesus Christ !
     
    #4 savedbymercy, Jun 16, 2015
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    One thing is true, Calvinism interprets scripture according to a sequence not found in scripture. Here we have faith being supposedly the result of being altered by irresistible grace. The claim, regeneration or rebirth before faith is made over and over without any actual support.

    Does the fact that faith is a work support the claim? Nope

    Does the fact all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags support the claim? Nope

    Here is what scripture actually says, we are saved by grace through faith. Thus faith occurs before we are saved by grace. When you enter a room through a door, the sequence is (1) door and (2) room, not the other way around.

    When you were chosen for salvation it was on the basis of God crediting your faith as righteousness. If it was a good work, it would not need to be credited as righteousness. But if it was a filthy rag, then God would need to credit it as righteousness.
     
    #5 Van, Jun 16, 2015
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    The Spirit and the Word agrees! :thumbs:
     
    #6 steaver, Jun 16, 2015
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Whatever happened to the great reformation cry of sola fide! along with the other great solas? Did they all just get all tossed out the window and thrown on the garbage heap??
     
    #7 DHK, Jun 16, 2015
  8. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Did you understand the points I made in the posts? Please review them back to me the way I explained them, then we debate or discuss them!
     
    #8 savedbymercy, Jun 16, 2015
  9. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I understand them perfectly. Do you understand this quote? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved".
     
    #9 steaver, Jun 16, 2015
  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    steaver

    Ok please prove it to me, review the logic I used and scriptures to make my points even though you may disagree with them !
     
    #10 savedbymercy, Jun 16, 2015
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    What is there to prove? You made you points clear and I find those points skewed in judgment. You misunderstand and misapply many scriptures.

    Was Jesus fictitious when He said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not".

    How about Paul when asked how to be saved and he told the keeper of the prison, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house". More fictitiousness?

    Or how about the LORD saying, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

    You call these examples, and there are hundreds, "rabbit trials". This is because you cannot allow the full counsel of God's Word speak to you. You have selective hearing and tunnel vision.

    The Spirit and the Word agree that both predestination and free will work in harmony together. And both promote the Sovereignty of God and the doctrines of Grace.
     
    #11 steaver, Jun 17, 2015
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    "In these three phrases;(not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works) Paul embraces the substance of his long argument in the Epistles to the Romans and to the Galatians, that righteousness comes to us from the mercy of God alone, is offered to us in Christ by the gospel, and is received by faith alone, without the merit of works". - John Calvin, Commentaries of the Epistles of Paul to the Galatians and Ephesians, Trans. William Pringle, p228.

    It appears Calvin understood the difference between working for one's salvation and faith alone. Calvinist today (at least the ones on here) keep calling faith a work that would merit salvation and allow for boasting. Even the father of Calvinism, Calvin, understood the difference.
     
    #12 steaver, Jun 17, 2015
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Let me know when you are ready to do as i asked !
     
    #13 savedbymercy, Jun 17, 2015
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    He is not your slave. No one is compelled to do what you demand.
     
    #14 DHK, Jun 17, 2015
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    It has been done. You have been rebuked. Now it's up to you to either repent and align yourself with the Scripture, or continue on in error.....

    Paul was clear in his teaching that faith was not in the works he spoke of. You have positioned yourself directly opposed to Paul.
     
    #15 steaver, Jun 17, 2015
  16. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    I have not demanded anything, I asked, so you are being dishonest again by saying that!
     
    #16 savedbymercy, Jun 17, 2015
  17. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    I will discuss ONLY the first point; the rest of your opening post hinges on that.

    Your first point is to discuss what a "work" is; then apply faith to that definition.

    This is an error, because you necessarily require faith to take on the definition of work, rather than its own definition of conviction or belief with the predominate idea of trust.

    Then you compound the error of this point by trying to use the jailor as an example of faith as something we do. This is a misunderstanding of what the jailor was asking. For example, Simon in Acts 8 thought he could buy the power exhibited by the apostles; this is an example of something we do. The jailor had spent his life being told by the pharisees that he must follow the Law in order to earn a place in heaven; instead of being told things he could do, like abstain from eating certain animals, he was told to believe/trust.

    I do not tell myself to breath; it is something that happens. It is this sense of believing/trusting/conviction that the jailor is given an answer; not something that he must do, but that must happen.

    And thus, none of the rest of your points need be discussed, because the first one creates a false premise.

    Does that satisfy your requirement?
     
    #17 Don, Jun 17, 2015
  18. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Please review with me the points I made and how I made them with scripture ! Other than that its nothing but an evasion !
     
    #18 savedbymercy, Jun 18, 2015
  19. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Pathetic. He countered your points thoroughly with sound reasoning.
     
    #19 steaver, Jun 18, 2015
  20. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    No problem, you nor he has to !
     
    #20 savedbymercy, Jun 18, 2015
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