Faith is the issue here, what is its source???

It seems to me that faith is the means by which one is saved, so where does faith come from?

Rom 10:17   "So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Faith comes by hearing and the gospel call is to the entire world; therefore anyone who hears the gospel has the capasity to have faith and get saved.

It sounds pretty cut and dry to me.

 

Faith is an attribute of man, that is, something that is true of man. Every man has faith in something. So when we are told in the scripture to "have faith", the capacity to do so already exists in man. So it is not a matter of "having faith", but rather a matter of who one has faith in.

Yes, one can have faith in many things and in many people, however when speaking of the spiritual realm there are but a few choices; Self, Satan, Jesus and God. Scriptures clearly tell us that faith in self has "certain limited rewards", and that faith in Satan leads to sure destruction. So that leaves only two options Jesus and God.

All religions that claim one living God have faith in God. But there is only one "way" that Claims Jesus as Lord and Master, and that is Christianity. Christianity is founded on the claim that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah, thus the one living God is integral to Christianity. Christianity claims that God has 3 persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that these 3 are one God.

Jesus says that Whosoever has faith in Him shall live eternally. I do! I place my faith in Jesus the Christ, therefore I am Christian. I do however have room to have faith in other people, but it is not the spiritually saving faith like I have in Jesus.

 

Glad to be here.

It also says. "How can they believe in one of whom they have not heard?"

The obvious answer to this rhetorical question implies that the ones who HEAR can believe. So to assume that people are unable to believe in what they hear seems go against the basic understanding of this text.

John 3:16 and many other passages use of the phrase "whosoever believes" gives the impression that "whosoever" has the ability to believe. To assume otherwise would require some kind of specific teaching that says something to the effect of, "Because of sin no one can believe the gospel when they hear it."

Is there any scripture like that?

 

Still calling on him is only after they have believed. Only after they have been regenerated can they believe and call on him for mercy.

How do they hear? 'hearing by the word of God'

First, Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This signifies the working of the Holy Spirit.

Nowhere in scripture is it stated that man has a will that is able to believe the things of God, stretch it as you may, you just can't cover the gaps. But man is rightly described as being spiritually dead.
</font>[/QUOTE]Frogman, how does "hearing by the word of God" signify the working of the Spirit. BTW, the most reliable manuscripts say "hearing by the word of Christ."

To me this is just saying that the message was first heard by the words of Christ. What do you think it means?

You also said: Still calling on him is only after they have believed. Only after they have been regenerated can they believe and call on him for mercy.

So you are saying that "calling on him" comes after belief and therefore belief comes after regeneration? I'm not sure I follow your logic.

Here is the order I see it: The Gospel is Preached by the power of the HS----Man responds in Faith------The Spirit immediately is deposited as a gaurentee-----The man calls on the name of the Lord in repentance.

I hope that clarifies my position, can you please clarify yours? Thanks

 

I think you are taking great liberities with this text.

Notice that before God breathes life into the bones he says, " Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD." We know from Romans that faith comes from hearing, just because this text leaves faith out of the equation doesn't mean the whole counsel of God's Word leaves it out. There are other verses that don't mention Grace but only mention faith or repentance as being the means to salvation, but we don't assume that Grace is not involved.

Preaching causes hearing, hearing brings faith, faith brings the HS, the HS brings conviction and complete understanding which leads to repentance and ultimately salvation. This is all made possible by GRACE.

I think that the time between these activities could be practically unnoticable and almost seem to be happening at the same time.

 

That is fine with me, it's all the same Spirit.
1 Peter 1.10-11
</font>[/QUOTE]Romans doesn't say "the Spirit of Christ" it says "the word of Christ." In fact the word for "word" is "Rhema" in Greek is used in conjuction with a spoken utterance, not just a inner spiritual moving. So, I'm still not sure what you think Romans 10:17 means. Could you be a little more forthcoming in your explainations? Thank you.

 

Pastor, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of this passage. You seem to be saying that man must have a full understanding of the mystery of the gospel before he can have a saving child like faith in Christ. This is simply untrue.

Look at the context of this passage and I think you can see that Paul is not speaking about Salvation. Instead he is speaking about those who already have the Spirit who are seeking understanding the "deep things of God."

I Cor. 2:10-14
Now God has revealed them to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the concerns of a man except the spirit of the man that is in him? In the same way, no one knows the concerns of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, in order to know what has been freely given to us by God. We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually.

Pastor, it is clear to see that Paul is speaking about those who have already recieved the Spirit and their understanding of the "deep things" of God. We know from other texts that the Spirit comes through faith.

Galatians 3:14: The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Faith does not require a full understanding of the "deep things of God." We can all thank the Lord for that!

 

Yes, I as I explain in the first post I think you did.

If I point out that the Elect's knowing who their Lord is, according to this passage, is after God did His work of bringing them back to life, am I taking great liberties ? Am I indulging in semantics ?[/quote]
Yes, you are assuming that this very allegorical text is attempting to explain the means by which God saves those who hear the gospel.

Where does is say that Lazarus resurrection is a representitive of salvation?

You are trying to equate Paul's analogy of "spiritual death" as equal to "physical death" to prove total depravity. When in fact Rom. 6:2 uses the analogy of being dead that obviously in not in reference to total depravity as Calvinists teach it.

How are we made alive? "By Grace through faith."

You are correct, it comes from God who sent us the gospel for "Faith cometh by hearing..." He has given all the ability to have faith. How many people do you know who are not Christians who still believe in God or a supernatural being? Faith is a common characteristic, the question is, "Who is your faith in?"

You are incorrect. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. How will they believe unless they hear? Regeneration is accomplished by the Spirit's indwelling which doesn't take place until faith. (Gal 3:14)

I think Bro. Bill has pointed out to you all that the only ones who don't have ears to hear is hardened Israel. According to Paul in Acts 28:28 the Gentiles will hear.

You are straying from mainline Calvinism. Most don't teach that no one is regenerated apart from the gospel, I'm surprised that you do considering all of the passages that teach about the gospel being necessary for conversion.

 

By the quickening of the truth within us, it is the truth that sets us free! We Hear the truth, then Believe the truth, and the truth transforms us from our former selves, to our regenerated self, and by believing in Jesus, we have life eternal.