Faith IS the means of salvation.

[12strings]

Premise: We are saved BY the sovereign grace of God, but Faith is the MEANS by which God saves and keeps us. Consider the following scriptures:

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
(Philippians 3:8-11)

-Paul speaks of ATTAINING the resurection of the dead. If He were justifed apart from faith, then he would have no reason to try to attain anything.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16 )

-Those who believe have eternal life. Those who do not believe do not have eternal life.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:3-9)

-Faith is the MEANS by which God keeps his children until the final (eternal) salvation. It is true that God keeps his children eternally secure, but the means he uses to do it is their FAITH. He guards them THROUGH FAITH. The Outcome of their faith is the salvation of their souls.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:21-26)

-Perhaps clearer here than anywhere: The Righteousness of Christ, which we need in order to be justified, is "for all who believe." in fact the means of obtaining it is that it is "to be received by faith."

For by Grace are you saved, THROUGH FAITH.

 

[billwald]

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16 )

>Those who believe have eternal life. Those who do not believe do not have eternal life.

Those who cross w/b over the Evergreen Point Bridge arrive in Seattle. Those who attempt to cross W/B over the I-90 bridge to enter Seattle by magic arrive in Hell?

Paul also wrote, "I have fought the good fight." What is the good fight and why did he fight it? Why didn't he simply believe?

 

[savedbymercy]

12s

Premise: We are saved BY the sovereign grace of God, but Faith is the MEANS by which God saves and keeps us.

Thats error. Grace is the Means God saves His People and He Keeps them Saved by that same Grace, Spiritual Power, for Grace Reigns through Righteousness !

Rom 5:21

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[DaChaser1]

Premise: We are saved BY the sovereign grace of God, but Faith is the MEANS by which God saves and keeps us. Consider the following scriptures:


-Paul speaks of ATTAINING the resurection of the dead. If He were justifed apart from faith, then he would have no reason to try to attain anything.



-Those who believe have eternal life. Those who do not believe do not have eternal life.



-Faith is the MEANS by which God keeps his children until the final (eternal) salvation. It is true that God keeps his children eternally secure, but the means he uses to do it is their FAITH. He guards them THROUGH FAITH. The Outcome of their faith is the salvation of their souls.



-Perhaps clearer here than anywhere: The Righteousness of Christ, which we need in order to be justified, is "for all who believe." in fact the means of obtaining it is that it is "to be received by faith."

For by Grace are you saved, THROUGH FAITH.

God saves us through/by the atoning act of Christ on our behalf at the Cross, faith is vehicle/bridge to get it effectually applied towards our behalf!


God keeps us on basis of the Cross provided full/sufficient atonemnt, so NOTHING can subtarct us away from Him now, as have been fully justified in/by beloved!

 

[12strings]

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16 )

>Those who believe have eternal life. Those who do not believe do not have eternal life.

Those who cross w/b over the Evergreen Point Bridge arrive in Seattle. Those who attempt to cross W/B over the I-90 bridge to enter Seattle by magic arrive in Hell?

Paul also wrote, "I have fought the good fight." What is the good fight and why did he fight it? Why didn't he simply believe?

I'm sorry, I really can't follow what you are saying here. What is "w/b"? even if I knew what that meant I still don't understand your analogy.

As for Paul: 1 Timothy 6:12 - Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

 

[12strings]

12s

Thats error. Grace is the Means God saves His People and He Keeps them Saved by that same Grace, Spiritual Power, for Grace Reigns through Righteousness !

Rom 5:21 - That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

So what about the verses that seem to say Faith is involved somehow?

 

[12strings]

God saves us through/by the atoning act of Christ on our behalf at the Cross, faith is vehicle/bridge to get it effectually applied towards our behalf!

God keeps us on basis of the Cross provided full/sufficient atonemnt, so NOTHING can subtarct us away from Him now, as have been fully justified in/by beloved!

I think you are mostly agreeing with me but I'm not about the last part. Are you saying our faith is NOT involved in our Presevation/perserverance?

If so, I would put it this way: There are many warnings about falling away, about abandoning the faith, or not forsaking the Gospel. God requires that we continue in the faith...but he then through his indwelling Spirit ensures that we do continue believing.

 

[DaChaser1]

I think you are mostly agreeing with me but I'm not about the last part. Are you saying our faith is NOT involved in our Presevation/perserverance?

If so, I would put it this way: There are many warnings about falling away, about abandoning the faith, or not forsaking the Gospel. God requires that we continue in the faith...but he then through his indwelling Spirit ensures that we do continue believing.

Would say that what God has started, he will make sure to complete it!

Saved and sealed by the HS, so even IF we stumble and fall along the way, God will make sure that we make it home in the end, as its Him supporting us...

Our faith itself is His gift, and his gifts and callings are irrovacable!

 

[Andre]

-Perhaps clearer here than anywhere: The Righteousness of Christ, which we need in order to be justified, is "for all who believe." in fact the means of obtaining it is that it is "to be received by faith."

For by Grace are you saved, THROUGH FAITH.

Its not quite this simple, I suggest. Look at this translation (the NET bible) of the Romans text you cited:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under 22 the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 3:20 For no one is declared righteous before him 23 by the works of the law, 24 for through the law comes 25 the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now 26 apart from the law the righteousness of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets) 27 has been disclosed – 3:22 namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ 28 for all who believe. For there is no distinction,

Note the difference in verse 22 - "the faithfulness of Jesus Christ" as contrasted with the "faith in Jesus Christ".

Huge, huge difference in meaning, which highlights that we need to remember that translations involve interpretation.

For reasons I do not have time to get into here, I believe the NET translation captures the intended meaning.

More later, hopefully.

 

[12strings]

Its not quite this simple, I suggest. Look at this translation (the NET bible) of the Romans text you cited:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under 22 the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 3:20 For no one is declared righteous before him 23 by the works of the law, 24 for through the law comes 25 the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now 26 apart from the law the righteousness of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets) 27 has been disclosed – 3:22 namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ 28 for all who believe. For there is no distinction,

Note the difference in verse 22 - "the faithfulness of Jesus Christ" as contrasted with the "faith in Jesus Christ".

Huge, huge difference in meaning, which highlights that we need to remember that translations involve interpretation.

For reasons I do not have time to get into here, I believe the NET translation captures the intended meaning.

More later, hopefully.

I recognize that this difference in translation does make a difference in how the passage should be read. I have read arguments on both sides, including the following:

Favoring "IN":

http://www.dtl.org/versions/article/faith.htm

Favoring "of":

http://undeception.com/pistis-iesou-christou/

I see some good points on both sides. The "faith of Christ" is definitly the most literal, but the first link there make a good case for Christ being the object of faith.

However, I specifically used the Romans 3 passage because the context makes it clear that even if those specific phrases are referring to the "faith OF Christ", there is still the aspect of the belief and faith of the individual in receiving the righteousness of Christ, as the bolded portions below show.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:21-26)

 

[Andre]

However, I specifically used the Romans 3 passage because the context makes it clear that even if those specific phrases are referring to the "faith OF Christ", there is still the aspect of the belief and faith of the individual in receiving the righteousness of Christ, as the bolded portions below show.

Are you arguing for the position that the believer is imputed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ? If so, I will disagree, being fully aware that most Christians believe in this idea that we are imputed the righteousness of Jesus.

I do not believe that Paul believes in such an idea - we are indeed imputed a status of righteousness, but it is not the righteousness of Jesus (or of God) that we are imputed.

In particular, I see nothing in Romans 3 that forces us to conclude that believers are imputed with Jesus's righteousness. Do you?

 

[Andre]

By the way, I am in no way denying the doctrine that we are saved by grace through faith. However, one can coherently believe this and yet hold the position that we are not imputed with Jesus' (or God's) righteousness.

 

[12strings]

You are correct that imputed righteousness is not explicit in this passage. However, I do hold to it, based on passages like phil 3:9, hinted at in Rom. 5:10 & others.

But would be interested to hear what alternative you hold to, and why. If God cannot tolerate sin, Does Jesus then ONLY take our guilt away, So God then sees us as a blank neutral slate...no longer sinful, but not good either?

 

[savedbymercy]

So what about the verses that seem to say Faith is involved somehow?

I explain myself in this thread !

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=75415

 

[12strings]

I explain myself in this thread !

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=75415

I don't agree with all your posts, but I don't think I see anything here I would disagree with.

 

[DaChaser1]

Are you arguing for the position that the believer is imputed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ? If so, I will disagree, being fully aware that most Christians believe in this idea that we are imputed the righteousness of Jesus.

I do not believe that Paul believes in such an idea - we are indeed imputed a status of righteousness, but it is not the righteousness of Jesus (or of God) that we are imputed.

In particular, I see nothing in Romans 3 that forces us to conclude that believers are imputed with Jesus's righteousness. Do you?

In order to be saved, and able to come to God , we HAVE to receive the rightousness of Jesus...

God needs perfection and to have One who is without sin, always perfectly kept His law...

jesus is perfect, and kept for us the law...

God applies that work towards sinners, thats why can freely declare and justify them!

 

[DaChaser1]

You are correct that imputed righteousness is not explicit in this passage. However, I do hold to it, based on passages like phil 3:9, hinted at in Rom. 5:10 & others.

But would be interested to hear what alternative you hold to, and why. If God cannot tolerate sin, Does Jesus then ONLY take our guilt away, So God then sees us as a blank neutral slate...no longer sinful, but not good either?

God has a sin debt owed unto him, for willful breaking of His law, but more so, in that we are born seperated from Him, as sinners...

IF just "wipe slate clean", Jesus died to atone for past sins and my sin nature ONLY...

Jesus died for ALL my sins, and that is what God imputes to me, all that Jesus died for he credit unto my spiritual account for!

IF just a blank slate, still would owe God for being found in sin thru the fall of Adam, so would have to account for very sin nature itself!

And future sins still be reckoned to me to pay!