Faith

Bob Krajcik · May 19, 2005

Faith

All have not faith.

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (KJV) And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Faith is given on behalf of Christ, that the sheep would believe.

Philippians 1:29 (KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

It is given unto us to believe by the power of God.

Philippians 2:13 (KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If one comes to Christ, they come by faith.

John 6:65 (KJV) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

If it be of ourselves it is not the gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Do you agree, or disagree? If you do not agree with this, what Scripture do you use to show your rebuttal?

UZThD · May 19, 2005

I basically agree.

I am confused about your summary of Phil 1:29. Faith is given so that the sheep will believe..is that your meaning?

Also I'm not sure that the referent of "that" in Eph 2:8 is faith. Still IMO God gives saving faith.

massdak · May 19, 2005

i would have to agree

OldRegular · May 19, 2005

Good post Bob.

Bob Krajcik · May 20, 2005

Originally posted by UZThD:
I am confused about your summary of Phil 1:29. Faith is given so that the sheep will believe..is that your meaning?

Also I'm not sure that the referent of "that" in Eph 2:8 is faith. Still IMO God gives saving faith.
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Yes, my intent with Philippians 1:29 is that faith is given so that the sheep will believe.

There is difference of understanding about the referent of “that” in Eph 2:8, but myself, I have settled that regardless if the referent is grace, saved, or faith, the three are all tied together, that if you have one you have them all.

Bob Krajcik · May 20, 2005

UZThd:

Your point about Eph 2:8 is a good one, and requires attention. I think it would have been more clear and more correct had I not referred to that verse, but instead settled on the other comments I made about faith. For Eph 2:8, even if grace, saved, and faith are linked together, the more clear meaning is that grace is the referent of "that."

Ephesians 2:5 shows "by grace ye are saved" and Ephesians 2:8 shows "ye are saved through faith." As I understand, and think the Bible shows, all is the gift of God, given freely wholly by the will of God, and not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man.

I would welcome your comments if you see something different. I am seeking to more fully understand these things.

UZThD · May 20, 2005

Originally posted by Bob Krajcik:
UZThd:

Your point about Eph 2:8 is a good one, and requires attention. I think it would have been more clear and more correct had I not referred to that verse, but instead settled on the other comments I made about faith. For Eph 2:8, even if grace, saved, and faith are linked together, the more clear meaning is that grace is the referent of "that."

Ephesians 2:5 shows "by grace ye are saved" and Ephesians 2:8 shows "ye are saved through faith." As I understand, and think the Bible shows, all is the gift of God, given freely wholly by the will of God, and not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man.

I would welcome your comments if you see something different. I am seeking to more fully understand these things.
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===

Bob

"That" (or 'this' or 'it') is a suitable translation of the singular, demonstrative, neuter adjective "touto."

Some think that the adjective refers to "salvation" not "faith." (Robertson, Grammar,704).

Some think that the adjective refers directly to faith (C. Hodge, Comm., 42).

Some think the adjective refers to the complete clause. (EBC, 11:37).

The arguments against taking "that" as referring only to faith are that

1) the gender of "faith" is feminine but the gender of "that" is masculine. Usually the NT writers match the gender of an adjective to the noun it fits.

2) to separate "of works" from "of you" ,in the opinion of some, does violence to the connection the apostle is making.

On the other hand,

1) the rule that a demonstrative adjective must agree with its antecedent has some exceptions.

2) The adjective is closest to "faith," and, there is a rule that a pronoun or adjective will closely follow its antecedent.

3) here Paul is stressing (IMO) that salvation from its start is of God and not of man.

4) in the context of 3 above, as "faith" is often seen as an act of men, the apostle might be here emphatically saying that while men exercise faith , even, that very faith they express is of God.

5) the interpretation that 'that' refers to "salvation in general," would seem to make 'that' tautological or repetitious, as Paul already said that salvation is by grace. One might think Paul would expand his idea by saying something exclusively about faith..

6) if we take 'that' as referring to 'faith', as the gift of God, then, a complete antithesis is made from "salvation by works" since faith by men might be understood as a work by men. But if faith also is from God, then, there is quite clearly no room for boasting.

7) Faith elsewhere is seemingly said to be the work of God even in this very Epistle (1:19).

Consequently, I see some good reasons to take 'that' as referring to 'faith.' But I may be wrong.

Bill

UZThD · May 20, 2005

oops. re the first 1) above: 'that' is neuter, not masculine.

Dr. Bob · May 20, 2005

A general "Faith" is common to all mankind.

A salvific "Faith" is for the elect only, so that they will believe and call on the name of the Lord to be saved.

The Bible distinguishes the two.

Soulman · May 22, 2005

Posted by Dr. Bob: A salvific "Faith" is for the elect only, so that they will believe and call on the name of the Lord to be saved.

With trembling bones I disagree with you Dr. Bob. Anyone can call upon the name of the Lord. The bible says"Whosoever".

Anyone can obtain salvific faith. Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Doesn't say if you are elect you can hear. It says faith cometh by hearing. Open invitation to ALL.

Gregory Perry Sr. · May 22, 2005

FAITH is available to all men as incompassed in "whosoever will may come".Election does NOT mean that God CHOOSES some to go to hell and some to go to heaven.Election goes hand in had with,and is to be understood by the divine FOREKNOWLEDGE of God in that He knows from the foundation of the world(and before)who would and who would not come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ(but WE don't know that so that is why we need to preach,teach,and spread the good news of the Gospel to as many as we can).Predestination must also be viewed in the same light.God's foreknowledge is the KEY.As to what the Bible teaches about faith and grace and salvation...ALL are the GIFT of a loving,merciful God.I won't guote the references since I don't have that kind of memory for them but this is what the Lord has revealed to me from my reading and study of His Word over the years.God's infinite foreknowledge is the key that makes the hand slip easily INTO the glove.JMO.God Bless You.(John Calvin would have had a "fit" over that one I think...lol).

Greg Sr.

UZThD · May 22, 2005

IMO foreknowledge , as in Rom 8:28, does NOT mean, as ARMINIUS claimed, foreseen faith.

Gregory Perry Sr. · May 23, 2005

UZ...you are certainly entitled to your opinion.Mine is that Arminius wasn't right OR wrong about everything.....and neither was Calvin.There is some truth to be found in both positions...as well as some error.God is God....as as such He can and does "foresee" any and everything...be it faith...or the lack thereof.Sometimes we just have to accept the idea that we can't possibly understand all of God's thoughts,ways or methods of getting things done.There is no manmade system of theology available to man that will ever fully explain God and His infinite wisdom.His ways are unsearchable many times.We just need to keep telling people about Jesus until the trumpet blows.

Greg Sr.

UZThD · May 23, 2005

Originally posted by Gregory Perry Sr.:
[QB] UZ...you are certainly entitled to your opinion.Mine is that Arminius wasn't right OR wrong about everything.....and neither was Calvin.There is some truth to be found in both positions...as well as some error.

===

Hi Greg

I absolutely agree. At Point Loma Nazarene to get the MA in Religion we had to take a year course in which we read and discussed the three large vols of Arminius from a Wesleyan-Arminian perspective. Old Jake was a very bright fellow--no doubt.

I'm not much disposed to arguing the merits of one system of belief, as Calvinism, over another, as Arminianism. I prefer to look at individual Scriptures.

Neither do I at all doubt that God in His omniscience foreknew every event. I am not an Open Theist. However, I think that He foreknew every event because every event is in His Decree.

The issue is not His foreknowledge of events , IMO.

The issue in Rom 8:29, and in 1 Pet 1:2, is what does "foreknowledge" there mean and how does it relate to election.

====

God is God....as as such He can and does "foresee" any and everything...be it faith...or the lack thereof.

====

Yes , but, was it clearly our faith that God is said to have foreen?

Is that not reading the word "faith" into the text when it really is not there?

So, IMO, at least, it is an assumption that Paul is saying that God elected because He foresaw who would choose Him.

In fact, it seems to me, that if God chose us because we chose Him, then, there really is no point to election/predestination by God. Why predestinate that which will happen?

===

Sometimes we just have to accept the idea that we can't possibly understand all of God's thoughts,ways or methods of getting things done.There is no manmade system of theology available to man that will ever fully explain God and His infinite wisdom.His ways are unsearchable many times.We just need to keep telling people about Jesus until the trumpet blows.

===

Good point. We never understand perfectly. But I keep trying to learn more.

And as I study, one thing I think I uncover (with the help of people smarter than I ) is what seems to me to be the meaning of "foreknow."

This of course is a compound word. The "pro" indicates "in advance of or before."

But what does "know" mean? "Know" in the Bible oft means more than having the knowledge of a fact. It can mean ,as does the Hebrew ("yada"), an intimacy.

It can suggest as the Greek (gnosis) a relationship. EG, in Jo. 1:10, "the world knew Him not." That does not refer to knowing a fact that Jesus lived, IMO, it means having a relationship with Christ.

Or, in 1 John 2:3, "we know Him." This is not knowing some fact, it is knowing a Person; it is having a relationship . "Foreknowledge" simply adds a prefix to knowledge.

Consequently I think that God's foreknowledge in Rom 8:29 and 1 Pet 1:2 is not referencing His knowing a fact as in who will choose Him. It is saying, IMO, that those whom He "foreknew" were those to whom He related in His eternality.

I think Rom 8:29 makes God's predestination not based on what we do but on God's choice because:

1) it simply does not say that it was our faith that was foreseen, and,

2) the word proegno may mean having a relationship with, not having a foreknowledge of a fact (as in knowing who will believe).

But, as said, that is just my opinion.

Best wishes,

Bill
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Artimaeus · May 27, 2005

I am glad that I read this thread. It caused me to do a little studying. I learned that that "that" that that poster quoted refers to saved.

Agree or disagree you still must be impressed with using five straight "that"s in one sentence.

USN2Pulpit · May 27, 2005

I'm impressed...

Bob Krajcik · May 31, 2005

Originally posted by UZThD:

Bob

"That" (or 'this' or 'it') is a suitable translation of the singular, demonstrative, neuter adjective "touto."

Some think that the adjective refers to "salvation" not "faith." (Robertson, Grammar,704).

Some think that the adjective refers directly to faith (C. Hodge, Comm., 42).

Some think the adjective refers to the complete clause. (EBC, 11:37).

The arguments against taking "that" as referring only to faith are that

1) the gender of "faith" is feminine but the gender of "that" is masculine. Usually the NT writers match the gender of an adjective to the noun it fits.

2) to separate "of works" from "of you" ,in the opinion of some, does violence to the connection the apostle is making.

On the other hand,

1) the rule that a demonstrative adjective must agree with its antecedent has some exceptions.

2) The adjective is closest to "faith," and, there is a rule that a pronoun or adjective will closely follow its antecedent.

3) here Paul is stressing (IMO) that salvation from its start is of God and not of man.

4) in the context of 3 above, as "faith" is often seen as an act of men, the apostle might be here emphatically saying that while men exercise faith , even, that very faith they express is of God.

5) the interpretation that 'that' refers to "salvation in general," would seem to make 'that' tautological or repetitious, as Paul already said that salvation is by grace. One might think Paul would expand his idea by saying something exclusively about faith..

6) if we take 'that' as referring to 'faith', as the gift of God, then, a complete antithesis is made from "salvation by works" since faith by men might be understood as a work by men. But if faith also is from God, then, there is quite clearly no room for boasting.

7) Faith elsewhere is seemingly said to be the work of God even in this very Epistle (1:19).

Consequently, I see some good reasons to take 'that' as referring to 'faith.' But I may be wrong.

Bill

oops. re the first 1) above: 'that' is neuter, not masculine.
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Bill:

Thanks for taking the time to answer and show these thhings. I appreciate it, and have been challenged to study.

For the most part I agree with what you have said, and have checked it with various sources. There remains difference by some that are close to the same understanding, and, personally I have not found a solid majority consensus among those of similar understanding, and I am not settled that I know how it is to be understood.

Regarding “faith”, if it is the referent of “that” or not I am not sure. Myself, I do not think all have this faith, and I do think faith is created in man by the operation of the Holy Ghost, and so is not natural for man to have it, but this faith is instead by the supernatural work of God. As I understand, as the Father hath chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world, we are granted faith by the operation of the Holy Ghost. The Father has chosen us, the Son dies for us, and by the Spirit we are born again. God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness, but for those chosen Christ is the propitiation, averting God’s wrath. Grace appears precious when we first believe.

Perhaps I am being to picky, I’m not real sure how the authors intended it to be understood, I think I know, but I’m not positive how the authors intended the 1689 London Baptist Confession to be understood, but 11.1 of that confession says, “...which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.” It seems really clear so I am not sure why I am not settled on it. That is from the following segment of the confession, and shows that it is not altogether a new idea among Baptists that faith itself is the gift of God.

1689 London Baptist Confession section 11.1: Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth, (1) not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; (2) not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; (3) not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in His death for their whole and sole righteousness, (4) they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God. (5)

1. Ro 3:24; 8:30
2. Ro 4:5-8; Eph 1:7
3. 1Co 1:30-31; Ro 5:17-19
4. Php 3:8-9; Eph 2:8-10
5. Joh 1:12; Ro 5:17
[/quote.]

This 1689 London Baptist Confession plus assorted others are available to download freely for use with the SwordSearcher software program. http://www.bright.net/~bkrajcik/swordsearcher_modules.htm
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Bob Krajcik · May 31, 2005

I’m still picking at this, but I tend to think that “faith” is the referent of ‘that” and with that said, here is a few more words from a favorite author, commenting on Ephesians 2:4,5,8:

Ephesians 2:4 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians, Geoffrey B. Wilson, Minister Of Birkby Baptist Church Huddersfield, © Geoffrey B. Wilson First Published 1978 ISBN 0 85151 263 1

V4: but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

‘But God’ points to the Author of this transition from wrath to grace. It was not simply the misery of our plight which called forth God's mercy, for he left multitudes to perish in their sin [Rom 9.15, 16]. No, the reason we received these riches of mercy was because of the greatness of that love which he bore towards us ‘in Christ’. And as God never acts ineffectively, it is a degradation of the gospel to depict him as helplessly pleading with men to respond to his love! For at the very outset of this letter Paul makes it crystal clear that God's love always reaches its intended objects [1.3-14]. ‘Us’ here means ‘we who now believe’, it is through faith that we are brought to realize our interest in the eternal covenant of grace. Until we believe there is nothing to distinguish us from other men, for we are ‘by nature children of wrath, even as the rest’. Scholars have commented upon the confessional character of this passage [vv 1-1o], but we must recognize that the ability to make such a statement of faith is the result of God's quickening grace [v 5]. Scripture does not present us with a God whose hands are tied until man chooses to believe the gospel; it declares that God will assuredly call the elect to saving faith through the preaching of the gospel to every creature [Is 55.11; Acts 13.48].

V5: even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),

even when we were dead through our trespasses, Paul is about to introduce the verb which (in the Greek) has been held back from ver. 1, but before doing so he introduces another modifier to heighten the contrast between our former deadness and the power of God's grace. For it is marvellous that God should quicken dead men who are worthy of nothing but everlasting damnation. As John Trapp says, Paul repeats himself because we find his doctrine so difficult to believe. We are apt to think ‘better of ourselves than there is cause for, and can hardly be persuaded that we are dead in sins and trespasses, and lie rotting and stinking in the graves of corruption, much worse than Lazarus did after he had lain four days in his sepulchre.’

(God) ... made us alive together with Christ At last we are given the compound verb which shows that God's act of quickening united us with Christ [cf v 6: ‘raised up with’ and ‘made to sit with’]. These remarkable verses set forth our present participation in Christ's heavenly life more clearly than any other passage in the New Testament. As the article in the original indicates (‘the Christ’), Christ is here considered in his official relation to us. Accordingly his resurrection is seen as the pledge and pattern of our spiritual quickening. When he was physically raised, all his people were ideally raised in him; and because of this prior union with him, they are, in regeneration, actually quickened and raised with him (Eadie).

(by grace have ye been saved), Paul's characteristic parenthesis further emphasizes the grace by which our salvation has been secured. ‘Nothing else than grace could give life to the dead, but grace could indeed do even that’ (Salmond). Here it is important to note the force of the perfect tense, which points to a present state as the continuing result of a past action. Salvation is complete with respect to our deliverance from the death of sin, but incomplete with respect to what is still reserved for us [Rom 8.24].

V8: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; an that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

‘For it is by this grace that you have been saved.’ With this reassertion of what has already been parenthetically stated ver. 5, Paul exultantly attributes the Ephesians’ salvation the solitary achievement of God's grace. ‘Through faith’ no way detracts from the grace which bestows this pricey boon upon us, for the preposition used (dia) shows that faith was only the instrumental means of our receiving it. ‘The hands of all other graces are working hands, but the hands of faith are merely receiving hands’ (Goodwin).

and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Ever jealous of God's glory, Paul adds that even this faith is not self-generated; it is the gift of God! When we are thus dependent upon God for the very capacity to embrace the gospel then clearly faith can contribute nothing to our salvation.

There are sound arguments for this interpretation, which completely rules out ‘the most refined doctrine of conditional merit’ (G. C. Berkouwer, Faith and Justification. p. 490). To insist that ‘that’ is neuter and ‘faith’ is feminine is not decisive against this view, which recognizes an advance in Paul's reasoning; whereas he merely repeats himself if ‘that’ is referred to ‘salvation’ rather than ‘faith’. To say: ‘You are saved by faith; not of yourselves; your salvation is the gift of God; it is not of works,’ is simply to say the same thing without making any progress. But to say: ‘You are saved through faith (and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God), not of works,’ greatly increases the force of the passage (Charles Hodge).
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Bob Krajcik · May 31, 2005

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
I am glad that I read this thread. It caused me to do a little studying. I learned that that "that" that that poster quoted refers to saved.

Agree or disagree you still must be impressed with using five straight "that"s in one sentence.
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The quote with "that" five times in a row is certainly impressive.

Bob Krajcik · May 31, 2005

Faith

All have not faith.

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (KJV) And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Faith is given on behalf of Christ, that the sheep would believe.

Philippians 1:29 (KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

It is given unto us to believe by the power of God.

Philippians 2:13 (KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If one comes to Christ, they come by faith.

John 6:65 (KJV) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Click to expand...

I remain convinced with what I said above. Further, with Ephesians 2:8 I am not able to find any argument to convince me "faith" is not the referent of the word that.

Faith

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