False Christian Denominations

I wish there were no *professing* christian "denominations" that are preaching a false gospel, but unfortunetly there are. Christ taught us that the "wheat" and the "tares" would always be together until the end, and at that time He would take care of it.

For now, we just proclaim the truth in the midst of error and leave the results to God.

There are entire ministries devoted to "ex-these for Jesus" and "ex-those for Jesus", so God is powerfully at work in the midst of darkness...bringing those that are His to truth, and leading them to simple new testament "book of Acts" style fellowships.

God bless,

Mike

 

Does anybody here personally know anyone who had been "born again" and then became a Catholic? I just don't see born again Christians flocking into Catholic churches, but I do see conversions the other direction.

Likewise I don't see the born again becoming Mormons or JW's or SDA's. It seems that these groups grow almost solely through recruting the lost and through family birth rights (taught that way from a very young age).

I see it like this. Anyone who is born of God has the witness of truth in themselves. The witness speaks loud and clear that it is by grace ye are saved...and not of yourselves. Anything added to grace for justification is false and if you are born of God you would clearly know this from the newly created heart which Christ gave you. Therefore you would reject any teaching to the contrary.

God Bless!

 

Yes, I am one of them.

If you want more, check out http://www.chnetwork.org/
http://www.catholicconvert.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=1

 

Here is the gospel that Paul claimed to preach (or at least part of it)

What is the basis of justification in this statement of Paul?

WHO are the successful examples being justified in this statement?

ON what future day are they justified according to this text -- (quote please)?

In James' Gospel by what are the saints judged in the future?

Knowing that - what are they supposed to do according to the actual words in the text? (quote please)

In Romans 8 it is those who are " by the Spirit putting to death the .." What... that are the children of God?? (Quote please).

In Matt 7 - in Christ's gospel it is not the "HEARERS " but rather those who "WHAT" that enter heaven? (Quote please).

Now if these texts are not acceptable - it is possible that you will not want to quote the actual words in your response. But if that turns out to be the case - then that "should be a sign" to you - hard to ignore. You may have "another gospel".

In Christ,

Bob

 

In Rev 14:6-7 when the first Angel proclaims to the world the Everlasting/Eternal Gospel - what are the actual "Words" he uses? (quote please).

In Christ,

Bob

 

I would agree with you there. The non-Catholic to RC conversions seem to come "by marriage" primarily.

Well you may call the pastors that are joining the SDA church from other denominations "the unchurched" but I don't

In Christ,

Bob

 

Maybe you are too young of a memeber to remember the Catholic purge at the baptist board, but because Baptists were coming to the Church they kicked off the most active and eloquent Catholic posters. The moderators claimed these posters were prosteltyzing for defending their faith, So exactly how do you defend your faith without proclaiming it .

In the last 10 years the number of protestant minister who have become Catholic is huge I don't remember the exact number but it is staggering something in the neigborhood of 6000 born again protestant ministers trained in protestant seminaries

In fact their is a Catholic TV show on every day where many protestant ministers share their journey, "the Coming Home Network". Typically these men have a huge regard for the truth and can no longer handle the huge inconsistencies in the protestnat faith.

Also many of these former ministers have written books or tapes sharing their journey. Michael Crumbie is a former Baptist minister the comes to mind but their are many to choose from.

God Bless

 

Romans 8
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
<snip>
17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Matt 7

21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

That's a good question. I thought this was the place at the Baptist Board where people could discuss differing beliefs.

 

This comment made me curious. I did a search and I was surprised by the articles on the subject I found.

 

It amazes me how many Catholic priests have told me privately that they do not believe everything the RCC teaches too. My mother who went to a Catholic school says the same thing. When I was in the RCC, salvation by faith in Christ was never preached from the pulpit. We were never taught to read the Bible but rather memorize their dogmas in catechism. I will say this that it did teach me that I could memorize about five to six each week. It also surprises me how many of those who copme from Christian homes are lazy knowing that they have the truth and take it for granted. They often complain when you tell them you want them to memorize one or two verses each week.

When I was involved in a parachurch organization I had a number of students in the Bible studies I taught who attended the RCC. There were some who stayed and some who left. Those who stayed wanted to make changes. I think a lot of the changes have been a result of those who have studied the Bible. In 1975 the RCC formed a scholarship committee and that helped them a lot.

When I was a student at SWBTS there were two priests who were studying at the seminary. Many from other denominations were there for one reason--to study the Bible.

I think if anyone takes a serious look at the Early Church Fathers and the early RCC doctrines and compares them to what the RCC proclaims today they will see a huge difference. For example just atke a look at when a number of the doctrines of the RCC came about and were proclaimed. Take a look at the issue of indulgences and the confessional.

 

If one takes a serious look at the Early church Fathers and compares what they taught to what modern day Baptists teach, that one would find some very big differences as well.

 

All of protestants distinguishing beliefs are recent additions of men. the early church fathers are overwhelmingly catholic unless you twist a handleful of comments here and there out of context.

You list confession as an example. for that one Jesus was pretty clear., What did Jesus say to his disciples

John 20(KJV)

21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: l23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

gb9433

Have you ever considered how the apostles where supposed to follow this directive. Lets say the sin of adultery, to forgive or retain this sin did the apostles actual have to witness the act of adultery or could people confess their sins to them.

Your other altenative is to believe that Jesus didn't mean what he said and the apostles couldn't forgive or retain sins, in Christ's name. I guess thats what most protestants believe, sad indeed.

 

Violet wins.

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. This is PRECISELY why a venue like this board is NEEDED! We have to stop kicking off Catholics that come here to share their views on Christianity.

#2. I do agree with the poster that claimed that ignorance (under estimating the problem) is how you could ever see a Baptist become a Catholic.

#3. What better way to prepare Baptists to fully understand the problems with the RCC - than to open a forum like this one to full discussion.

Having said that - I also agree that simply having Catholics post things on this board like "well who cares what you think since the RCC is the one true church and if you are not RC then you are toast" - does not solve any problems. (Of course I also don't think it persuades anyone to become a Catholic - but that is just my opinion).

Frankly I thoroughly enjoy having the opportunity to look at RC doctrine with actual Catholics on a venue that is not dominated by Catholic posters who will say "who cares what the Bible says - we are Catholic!". (Which is what you get when you go to the RC messagbe boards).

The true beauty of this board is that they can not pull that one on the board "As if" it is a good answer.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The fact is that well respected, best-selling Catholic historians, authors, writers are publishing facts about the RCC that many Catholics don't take the time to read.

IF the non-RC view is correct (and you have to assume many who post on this board take the NON-RC POV seriously) then THIS is what the RCC says the IMPLICATIONS are for the RCC.

</font>[/QUOTE]I for one - believe them.

In Christ,

Bob

 

gb93433
"In 1975 the RCC formed a scholarship committee and that helped them a lot. "
"
Never heard of this before. Do you have some more info?
I know of the struggle between Pius X and the L'ecole Biblique about scientific study of the Bible (which the school won in the end), but that's the first 2 decades of the XXth century.

 

Hi Bob, Let's begin from your opening statement...."Here is the gospel that Paul claimed to preach ( or at least part of it )"

" Part of it " is correct. Scripture is what interprets Scripture and " precept must be upon precept (Isaiah 28)" as we " study " to " rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15)".

Question #1 ...."What is the basis of justification in this statement of Paul?"

This is a perfect example of how not to "study" and "rightly divide the word of truth", "precept upon precept". You have asked a question confining a response to " in this statement of Paul ". In doing so you do not want any other Scriptures used to interpret this passage. As you said yourself, this is " part of the gospel " which is the exact reason that other Scriptures must be considered before determining the meaning of the passage.

You want the responder to be cornered into giving an answer which agrees with "your position" which in some way makes you feel "justified" and that is ironic indeed.

Now to answer with your rules of interpretation rather than the Bible's rules, one must answer that "doers of the law are those who will be justified according to this statement of Paul".

With your rules of interpretation I can also erroniously make Scripture show you that it is the "do gooders" that are given eternal life.... "the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds : To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life (Ro 2:6)". We could use passage after passage to prove just about any doctrine one can dream up. All we need to do is NOT "study" nor "rightly divide" nor consider "precept upon precept".

So let's go back to Paul's statements and study them, rightly divide them, and consider all of God's precepts upon precepts which He has given us. Let's use the "full gospel" and not just "part of it".

So the "cornered answer" would be that "those who do the law are those who will be justified".

But the true answer is found in the entire letters by Paul as we read on for the Biblical interpretation cannot be made confining oneself to a few lines of Scripture. Paul goes on to say...." by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight ". He also states that one is " justified freely, by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus ".

So why then does Paul state that the doers of the law will be justified? Paul goes on to explain the purpose of the law. We must consider all of the letters written for our learning and understanding. To the "foolish" Galatians who wanted to incorporate the law back into their justification by faith, Paul writes in conclusion after explaining once again that one is justified by faith apart from the law..."Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator".

"till the seed should come" "the mediator" and praise God Jesus has come. Paul explains clearly the function of the law and he uses Scripture to support his instructions for believers.... "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse : for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God , it is evident: for The just shall live by faith..... Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law .."(Gal 3:10-13)

He goes on...."But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe"(Gal 3:22).

As if this is not convincing enough, Paul places the final nail in the coffin of the law for the believer. "Wherefore the law was (past tense) our school-master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (3:24-25)".

Let us repeat that and emphasis it...."AFTER FAITH IS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A SCHOOLMASTER(the Law)!!

So what about "the doers of the law will be justified"? Can they be? Problem is that NNE can keep the entire law and even one offense makes one guilty of the entire law! God said so. Therefore even if one is guilty of one sinful thought each day, they are guilty of breaking every commandment ever given by God. This would mean that those who think they are justified by observing the Sabbath Day are just as guilty as those who do not. Sorry, " ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

It is clear that Paul was making the point that if you want to be justified by the law then you must do the entire law perfectly! He goes on to explain that this is impossible and concludes..."...we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin(Ro 3:9)". So doers of the law would be justified before God, but problem is, there are none ! This is where Jesus comes in and Faith in His perfectness which justifies the ungodly.

So your short answer doesn't work Bob. Those who feel they can be justified by the law, according to Paul, are cursed. Doers of the law will only be found cursed at their judgment day because All have sinned and fallen short. It is not a combination of Faith plus Doing which justifies, Paul makes that very clear. Paul thoroughly explains what he meant by "doers of the law will be justified".

Question #2 ..."WHO are the successful examples being justified in this statement?"

Same as above.

Question #3 ..."ON what future day are they justified according to this text -- (quote please)?"

Again, a disregard for God's commands to "study", "rightly divide" and "precept upon precept" when one confines oneself to a single phrase.

First of all they are not justified as has been proven through Scripture above. The "future day" is a judgment day, but which one? You can only interpret this using other scripture. There is a judgment day for the believer of "deeds while done in the body"(Ro 14:10,2 Cor 5:10). This would not be the one, for these seek to be justified by the law and have not submitted themselves to the justification which is found only in Jesus Christ.

There is the Judgment of nations on earth at the coming of Christ after the seven year Tribulation.(Matt 25:31)

There is the Great White Throne judgment at the conclusion of all things when those who have died with the law or without the law will be ressurrected and condemned to the lake of fire. Scripture would confirm that the judgment day spoken of in Romans in your post is this judgment of the unbeliever.

Question #4 ..."In James' Gospel by what are the saints judged in the future?"

Saints are judged by the "Law of Liberty". First, being called " saints " defines us as already "justified". If one is a saint, then one is deemed perfect in the sight of God. Therefore the "saints" (the already justified through the blood of Christ) are judged through the law of liberty which has been given us through faith in Jesus Christ.

This law of Liberty flys in the face of those desiring to impose the letter of the law. The two clash and cannot coexist. This is why Paul admonished the Galatians for trying to mix the two. The law of liberty is defined by James as well as others as " thou shalt love thy nieghbor as thyself, ye do well "(2:8). It has replaced the "letter of the law" (for the saint), which kills and was given to show us our guilt, with a law that is non condemning yet will play a role in the believers judgment at the "Judgment seat of Christ". This will not be a justifying trial concerning eternal life, that is taken care of in Christ at rebirth, it is a trial of deeds while done in the body, both good and bad. Rewards will be given or lost at this judgment.

Question #5 ..."Knowing that - what are they supposed to do according to the actual words in the text? (quote please)

"So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty".

Question #6 ..."In Romans 8 it is those who are " by the Spirit putting to death the .." What... that are the children of God?? (Quote please).

Don't see any point to the topic of "doers of the law being justified".

Question #7 ..."In Matt 7 - in Christ's gospel it is not the "HEARERS " but rather those who "WHAT" that enter heaven? (Quote please).


"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven".

Don't see any point to the topic of "doers of the law being justified". Unless you want to suggest that the "will of the father" is defined in scripture as "do the law and be justified". That then would be preaching a curse.

There is only one gospel. Study of the entire Bible precept upon precept, rightly dividing the word of truth will reveal to any seeker that justification is freely given through faith alone in Jesus Christ, apart from the law. Jesus came to defeat the law and it's curse. In fact Jesus upheld the law by delivering to it it's demands for justification. Jesus fullfilled the law for us that we may be justified freely through His work alone and not our own. For one to think that he or she is doing ANYTHING to aid in their own justification is in all reality spitting on the blood of Jesus Christ. It is stating that "yea, Jesus done some good for me but I must do for myself as well, just to show God that I am worthy of His acceptance". Sorry folks, but by you working at keeping the law, you are working against the blood of Jesus Christ . Just let it go and let Jesus be your Savior! Then you can do good works as you bring others into the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, your works will not survive the refiners fire and you will be left ashame that you did not " study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth ".

God Bless!

 

Wow! You have handled Bob and nailed his tactics much better than I have. You should join our discussion of Gal.4 where he disputes that Paul was even admonishing them over the Law!