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FIVE POINT ARMINIAN

Brother James

New Member
This little piece puts a pretty good contrast to the argument.
http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/trf/part_6.html

THE "FIVE POINTS" OF ARMINIANISM
1. Free-Will or Human Ability

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner posses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.

2. Conditional Election

God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement

Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

4. The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted

The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

5. Falling from Grace

Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc.

All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

According to Arminianism:

Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) - man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, "choose" to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be recipients of the gift of salvation.
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
Brother James,

At a quick reading I will say that I agree with this Arminian view. I do, however, believe in the perfect security of the true believer [Hebrews 7:25].

Do you believe what you have defined in this post, or is this merely a lead into discussion from Calvinists who disagree with this profile you have jotted down?

I do not believe every person gets to hear the Gospel with the possibility of being saved. Jesus, the Son, will judge them correctly as He will all of us.
 

El_Guero

New Member
Brother James,

I think that is a good view of how reformed theologians view Arminianism.

I think the best Arminian view of Arminianism was by Wesley. IMHO and one that I liked. Some Arminians are way out there, just like some Calvinists are way out there.

web page
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
First of all I am glad to see a Calvinist actually able to almost state the Arminian position. Almost able to accurately identify what Arminians claim to believe and why he would differ with that belief!

That is a big first step towards objectivity. BUT as we can see in the list of 5 they are framed as a Calvinist would redefine Arminianism.

So while all five points are very close to the five points that actually DO comprise the Arminian view - they have Calvinism's opinion of Arminianism "inserted". And that lack of ability to actually identify the other side - is what undermines the ability of Calvinism to offer a good counter argument.

In the end - the more clearly you again identify the opposing position the better you can address it head on.

Let us view the injection of Calvinism's complaint and redefinition of Arminianism as it does so in specific cases in the OP...


THE FIRST "FIVE POINTS" OF ARMINIANISM as twisted and convoluted in a Calvinist redefinition of Arminianism.

1. Free-Will or Human Ability

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness.

God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner posses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature.

The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God[b/]; it is man's contribution to salvation.
The corruption of the Arminian position in that quote above - is almost to the point of "extinction" of all that WAS there to start with in the Arminan view!!

So lets "unravel the knots" Calvinism ties for the Bible case for free will in the quote above..

1. Free-Will or Human Ability

Human nature was MORE than seriously affected by the fall in factd human nature became sinful - totally depraved and ENSLAVED to sin as Paul points out in Romans 6 and Romans 2.

The GOOD NEWS is that God has sovereignly CHOSEN Not to abandon mankind to that state of total spiritual helplessness.

God graciously CONVICETS ALL mankind "The WORLD" if SIN and righeousness and judgment. And in DRAWING ALL mankind unto Him God Sovereignly ENABLES the chose to accept salvation that total depravity DISABLES. Through the Work of the Holy Spirit ALONE mankind is convicted AND mankind is ENABLED to act. God interferes with the total enslavement that sin and Satan claim over mankind - sovereignly and supernaturally setting enmity between fallen man and the kingdom of darkness (Gen 3).

Mankind does not "posses a free will" rather mankind is GIVEN the ability to accept Christ even while being enslaved to sin.

God supernaturally and sovereignly stands at the door and knocks - having ENABLED mankind - ALONE and on the INSIDE without Christ - to hear and to act. All sinners thus FULLY ENABLED BY the Holy Spirit to ACT may freely choose Eternal Life - OR may choose to remain in bondage to sin! Mankind lost and depraved will not naturally choose good - we must be supernaturally CONVICTED to choose good and so ALL MANKIND is -- for God "CONVICTS THE WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment.

The lost sinner can not act without supernatural work of God done specifically and expressly for him - but praise God this work IS DONE for ALL without paritiality! having thus been effectively enabled by God to act - each person may choose to respond in faith - which is the gift of God. For faith is the RESULT of the supernatural work of God on the heart - ENABLING action and the response of the heart thus ENABLED to act - to believe and submit to God. Faith therefore is God's gift to ALL mankind!
And so ends the "gap analysis" of the FIRST of the five points claimed FOR Arminianism vs Believed BY Arminians.


A proper "blinders on" defense of Calvinism may be forced to pretend that one
"does not see the key differences" in those two statements above.

But the objective reader "will see".

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
The Calvinist redefinition of Arminianisms - second point

2. Conditional Election

God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
The 2nd point - "cleaned up" for what is actually believed.

2. Conditional Election

God's forknowledge is NOT in a vaccuum of His own sovereign choices. God forknows the results of His OWN act of Grace and sovereign choice to enable free will in sinful man. Therefore God fully knows WHO will submit to God and who will CHOOSE to remain in rebellion. Knowing the future of His Grace does not place God in the position of having arbitrarily selected in favor of the FEW will caring nothing for the MANY of Matt 7. Instead - as Romans 2 states God's judgment is impartial and as John 3 states God's Love is impartial.

Election therefore does NOT start with "God in a vaccuum" nor does it consist of "God not knowing the result of His grace". It is always in the context of God's own sovereign choices. It represents God knowing the RESULT of all decisions from eternity past. God does not base 'His choice" on "man's faith" but rather man's faith is based on God's sovereign choice to supernaturally supply grace and enable faith. God's KNOWING the results of that sovereign choice changes nothing.

The faith which God foresaw was gift of God to mankind and the choice to act in faith is the RESULT of that gift. The gift of conviction and of enabled choice NOT predicated on the sinner FIRST being arbitrarily selected and regenerated. (The sinner does not wake up to suddenly find himself IN UNION with Christ and then seeing himself in union - take the step of faith to believe in Chirst. )

No product of salvation results "solely from man's free will" because mankind is only ENABLED to act at all due to the sovereign choice of God to provide grace and enable action. Arminianism does not seek to "exclude God" from the equation of grace or the Gospel or salvation. Thefore the ultimate CAUSE of Salvation is God in every case. God who died, who Convicts, who CALLs, who ENABLES and who accepts the sinner.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
The contrast between Arminianism and Calvinism boils down to this --

Arminians accept that Bible truth that in the realm of salvation - God IS impartial (Rom 2:11) and God DOES So Love the WORLD (John 3:16)..

In the Realm of Calvinism - God is not believed to be impartial nor accepted as one who So Loves the WORLD!

Arminians never try to "isolate God from His act of Grace" in an effort to make salvation "the act of man" -- the act of the one lost. In every choice of man to accept Christ - Arminiansm sees the RESULT of God's sovereign choice to provide Grace!
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
Bob Ryan,

As you have read and may remember or may have forgot Deuteronomy 10:17 also says that the Lord is mighty and terrible, and yet He does not show preferential treatment toward lost souls. In fact our Lord says, 'He does not regard persons.' We are all sinners, we all need salvation and He has provided salvation to all who believe and trust in Him [I Timothy 2:6].

In both testaments {covenants} the Lord says about Himself that He is impartial. Friar John Calvin never got it straight in his theological mind.

John Wesley understood it well and rode on horseback everywhere preaching to all lost souls.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
The contrast between Arminianism and Calvinism boils down to this --

Calvinists accept that Bible truth that in the realm of salvation - God IS impartial (Rom 2:11) and God DOES So Love the WORLD (John 3:16)..

In the Realm of Arminianism - God is not believed to be impartial nor accepted as one who So Loves the WORLD!

Calvinists never try to "isolate God from His act of Grace" in an effort to make salvation "the act of man" -- the act of the one lost. In every choice of man to accept Christ - Calvinists sees the RESULT of God's sovereign choice to provide Grace!
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
I guess in an "anything for Calvinism" model you could ingore "all forms of logic" and just repeat the opposing view...

I had not thought of that antic.

Thanks for pointing it out.
 

whatever

New Member
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
We are all sinners, we all need salvation and He has provided salvation to all who believe and trust in Him [I Timothy 2:6].
So you believe that God is partial to those who believe and trust in Him? After all, we all need salvation, as you say, so it seems unfair that He would only provide salvation to some of us.
 

Bro. James

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What about the souls who die never having heard the gospel? Are they lost, separated from God?

Some have died never having had a choice in which to exercise their "free will".

Only God knows them that are His--Jesus died for them and no one can change that.

Selah,

Bro. James,
the less
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
whatever,

God provided salvation for all human beings {I John 2:2].

All who believe are saved [John 3:16].

Having provided the possibility of salvation for all sinners, it can never be laid at His feet that everyone did not have the possibility to be eternally saved.

You say, "What about the people in the Muslim world. It is our responsibility to get the truth into their hands [Mark 16:15-16]. As far as I know God has no other plan than for Christians to tell the truth of His death for a person's sins. Angels cannot do this--only the people of God.

The whole northern tier of Africa is on an average 98% Muslim. We have our work laid out before us.

There are three women in prison in Java, Indonesia because they taught S.S. lessons to Muslim children. I have been writing to them every two weeks so their captors do not think they are forgotten souls.

One of the topics on the Baptist Board is the Ten or Twenty Year Plan of the Muslims For America. We better get busy spreading the Gospel. Whenever I leave my house I witness to one or two people.

We are in a fight for our Christian faith and also for our democracy in the United States.

Ray
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
Tom Mann,

I guess if the KJV was good enough for the Apostle Paul is should be good for us.

Go study! Study your verse about '. . . as many as were appointed to eternal life--believed.'

Check the Greek and a few good commentaries {not Calvinistic mantra}; go do your own homework. :cool:

Dr. Berrian, Th.D.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Bro. James:
What about the souls who die never having heard the gospel? Are they lost, separated from God?
God 'says' He is impartial to all in Romans 2:11 but is He really telling the truth?? As Bro James points out - the case of those who have no access to the truth of God's Word surely shows that God's word can not be trusted AS IT READS in Romans 2:11....

Or maybe we should ask that James look at Romans 2:13-16 - 4 verses might be "enlightening" on that subject. Because we all know "God convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

In Christ,

Bob
 

TomMann

New Member
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Tom Mann,

I guess if the KJV was good enough for the Apostle Paul is should be good for us.
Go study! Study your verse about '. . . as many as were appointed to eternal life--believed.'

Check the Greek and a few good commentaries {not Calvinistic mantra}; go do your own homework. :cool:

Dr. Berrian, Th.D.
Suppose I should learn to read first..... Huh! Why are you assuming that I am unstudied? Because I don't agree with you or because I don't have the Dr. in front or the Th.D. at the end of my name? Normally you don't use that signature line in your posts.... are you trying to intimidate or impress me?

Okay I'll give ya my credentials. RCPO/RMC That would be Retired Chief Petty Officer/Rural Mail Carrier.

And I understand that you and I aren't going to see eye to eye on many issues... until that final day.... Then we will both know the truth, huh! (I took great care to delete two sarcastic lines that I really wanted to use.)

Now I understand the view of many that scripture is difficult to understand and has to be studied in depth. Proper hermeneutics, exegesis are required.

Or perhaps God made it real simple.. and easy to understand...

Now as far as the verse I quoted is concerned... You posted a verse... I posted a verse... I didn't post any comment... just a scripture... Why the fuss? Why are you so sensitive about Acts 13:48? Perhaps it doesn't say what you would want it to say... And you said "Go study
'your' verse". Isn't it in your Bible too?

Why do you feel the need to discredit me for use of the KJV? I have a bible program that comes up in KJV (out of personal preference) and I cut and paste to make sure it comes out exact... If I had used the NIV it would have said the same thing...... Lets see...

Acts 13:48
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
NIV

I can find commentaries that go both ways on this. Some will agree with you, some will not. Am I to assume that those who do not agree with your view are Calvanist mantra and those that do are inspired?


Go do your homework?????? What's that all about? Did anyone ever tell you that you might have a problem with a condesencing attitude?

Tom Mann RCPO/RMC
 

Me4Him

New Member
Satan deceived Adam/Eve into condemning the "whole world".

The world would have passed into "extinction" without "GOD" reaping so much as "ONE SOUL".

However the "TOTAL Condemnation" that Satan brought to the world, Jesus removed, and his "REDEMPTION" was as "COMPLETE" as it's "Condemnation".

The world would have passed into "extinction" without "SATAN" reaping so much as "ONE SOUL".

God's plan is "PERFECT", but only..IF.. "MAN OBEYS IT".
 

Bro. James

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"The possibility of salvation"--an interesting bit of permutation and probability--with eternal consequences. Sure sounds like salvation by works to me.

How does man make the wise choice? He knows not how in his depraved condition.

Selah,

Bro. James
the less

P.S. What does RCPO/RMC mean?
 
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