For Arminians Re: Free Will

If you mean a choice made by God, as in Election, I believe in Election. The problem that I have with the interpretations most observed on this Forum is that those elected ones they cannot identify, have no choice, divine or otherwise. They must come to faith because they are elected to it.

It would certainly be nice if someone would clearly identify just who those "elect" might be. But alas, God only, knows. Scriptures do not reveal a thing about who the elect might be or who the past elect were. So, we mere mortals can have absolutely no insight into God's planning.

 

Monergist;

Why should I believe that man's choice to believe in God is ordain, or appointed. You want us to prove it doesn't say something which it never said to begin with. The idea that mans choice for Salvation is ordained or appointed hasn't ever been shown to me. Just where would that scripture be?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal life believed.

YLT 2 Thessalonians 2:13 And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,

The literal Greek is best for this in 2 Thess 2.13
The grammar demands this arching,
God CHOSE you for salvation, God CHOSE you for sanctification, God CHOSE you to BELIEF.

Oh the beauty of the language that God gave us to UNDERSTAND His doctrines... it makes things so simple. Literally, He chose YOU to BELIEVE.

God said it, that settles it , BELIEVE it.

 

and then i still forgot the e-mail notification

johnp.

 

This says noting about our choice being ordained but says our eternal life was ordained because of believe. You're reading into the text not reading the text.
The use of so many translations to show a one verse charlie approach to the gospel shows a discontent with what scripture actually says. If it doesn't say what you want in one version look for another version. This is you failing.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

I don't deny that we are chosen by God first.
How ever it is we who first trust in Christ.

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Not to mention the KJV says right here in 2nd thess 2:13 that we are chosen through sanctification and belief. Now tell me my version isn't as right as the versions you just brought in.
I'm not impressed by your estimation of what the Greek says. You see I don't trust in YOU

May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

Reading into the text? READ IT would you!!
I do believe YOU ADDED because of into the text !! First of all, you added to scripture... this is sin. Secondly you described yourself (not only reading INTO text but ADDING to it) And thirdly and most importantly

Those who where ORDAINED (perfect tense) BELIEVED (aorist tense). This grammar is used so YOU CAN'T say they were ordained BECAUSE they believed !! YOU CAN"T SAY THAT !!!

For example:

Those who jumped in the pool got wet.
Those ordained believed.

There is a specific ORDER in the grammar that prevents you from saying ...
Those got wet then jumped in the pool.
Those who believed then were ordained.

It's basic language.

 

I don't think Acts 13:48 can be used by either Calvinists or Arminians, specifically because the word "ordained" has changed meaning over time. Actually when read in the proper tense, this verse says nothing more than "those who were rightly (or correctly or justly) disposed to eternal life believed." And actually could properly (literally) read "those who had set themselves to eternal life," because the word "tasso" (Gr.) is in the middle voice, not passive.

Notice how the meaning of "ordained" changed over time:
Also, Murray, J.A.H. (Ed.), "A New English Dictionary on Historical Principles," Vol. VII, Oxford, 1909, gives the following (amongst very many) definitions from the period prior to 1604:
Ordain I. †6 To put in order (for a purpose): to prepare, make ready, equip; to
furnish, provide. Obs.
1500-20 DUNBAR Poems lxxii. 242 Ordain for him a resting place ...
1535 COVERDALE Ps. vii. 13 He has ... ordained his arrows to destroy.

1548 HALL Chron., Hen. VIII 74 Chimneys, ranges, and such instruments that there was ordained. †b. To fit out, equip, or furnish (a person, etc.) with (in, of) something. Obs.
1548 BODRUGAN (Adams) Epit. King's Title Hj, Nature ... ordained all beasts with some natural munition, as horn, spur, tooth or nail.

†7 To put into a particular mental condition or disposition; to dispose (aright). Obs.
1502 Ord. Crysten Men 11.XV.123 By these 7 last commandments we be perfectly and justly ordained against our neighbours.

†8 To prepare oneself, make ready; to set or apply oneself (to do something). Obs.
1493 Festivall 78 Afterward he ordained himself and went into the holy land. II. 11 Eccl. To appoint or admit to the ministry of the Christian Church; ...
1588 J. UDALL Demonstr. Discipl. 20 The Apostles ordained bishops everywhere. 13 Of the Deity, fate, or supernatural power. To appoint as part of the order of the universe or of nature; to decree, predestine, destine.
1611 BIBLE Isa. 26:12.

(http://www.midclyth.supanet.com/page21.htm)

 

"For example:

Those who jumped in the pool got wet.
Those ordained believed.

There is a specific ORDER in the grammar that prevents you from saying ...
Those got wet then jumped in the pool.
Those who believed then were ordained."

Actually, the proper rendering would be "those jumped in the pool who were prepared (braced) to get wet" or "those who were prepared for wetness jumped in the pool."

 

Nice try "Dave Hunt"....

Do you always resort to Cult Bibles for answers?

The problem is that you (and Dave Hunt and Norm Geisler) ignore the actual text. Acts 13.48 uses a construction that indicates that the action had been taken IN THE PAST and was COMPLETED in the PAST. That is, a pluperfect tense meaning to a periphrastic construction using a perfect passive participle with an imperfect form of "eimi".

The Liddell and Scott Greek dictionary reveals under sec III number 2 you have "to appoint, ordain" with an almost identical participial form cited as an example. Further, Liddell and Scott is not a "koine" Greek lexicon.

This is a tremendous example of eisegesis.

Luke uses this verb, in the passive, to clearly mean "appoint" elsewhere. For example:

ESV Acts 22:10 And I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is APPOINTED for you to do.'

No one would suggest that we should understand this to mean "you will be told of all that you have appointed yourself to do" for "all you have judged yourself worth of doing." The same is true in Acts 28.23 where they "set a day" for Paul's hearing, again using the passive form of the same verb. Paul was not "disposed toward" a date, he was APPOINTED a date. I could go on and on... Look at Romans 13.1 ! Same construction.

So....

This is a periphrastic construction. The result is that the phrase must be translated as a "pluperfect" in other words "a completed action in the past"

 

Actually, the proper rendering would be "those jumped in the pool who were prepared (braced) to get wet" or "those who were prepared for wetness jumped in the pool.

This is just dumb...

 

RC, as far as "cult" Bibles. Actually, the Emphatic Diaglot and some others do translate this properly. It (Emphatic Diaglot) was not a "cult" Bible, but was used and twisted by a cult to suit their own purposes. Don't get silly. I think the KJV is a cult Bible, since it is used by the "KJV-only" cults. Just using your reasoning there.

Now let's see where else in the Bible the word is used

Acts 13:48
Romans 13:1 having been set in order same bar 1 letter

Verses with words translated "ordained"
1 Cor. 2:7 defined beforehand (i.e., foreordained)
1 Cor. 9:14 ordained
Eph. 2:10 he prepared before
Jude 4 having been written before

Notice that Romans 13:1 is the closest match to the Greek word. The other words translated "ordained" or something similar are completely different.

Facts are that the word "ordain" here likely does not mean the same thing that it once did, since anytime before 1933 (!) the definition included "prepared," To put into a particular mental condition or disposition; to properly dispose. And again, it is in the middle voice, not passive!

"the participle translated "had been appointed to" (tetagmenoi) is the middle-passive voice form of tasso.

In Greek, the same form is used to designate both the middle voice and the passive voice. The NASB translates it in the passive voice (the subject receives the action). However, if it is translated in the middle voice (the subject initiates the action), the passage would read ". . .as many as set themselves to eternal life believed." This translation resolves the difficulty"

(http://www.xenos.org/classes/principles/cpu1w6.htm)

 

Your question shows that you do not understand what you are asking.

If God were to foreordain any act, than how can it be said to be an act that was made by choice? "Choice" equates "freewill", to "foreordain" means that the will of man in under the controlling force of God, and therefore not "free".

Calvinism denies what the Bible teaches on freewill!

 

The Bible clearly states, like in John 5:39-40, that man does have a freewill and choses to use it to reject the free offer of eternal life. You still do not understand what the words "preordain" and "freewill" means. If God is active in "ordaining" any act that man carries out, then it is not the person that is doing it, but God who is enabling him to do it.

It is quite pointless in trying to explain the diifference between the various terms, as it is evident that the Calvinist is blinded to the actual truth, and will keep on asking pointless questions that are complete nonsense and contradict what Scriprure teaches

 

I have 70 versioins on hand... sorry , it's always ordained.

You don't know Greek do you "RnS".

This is a periphrastic construction. The result is that the phrase must be translated as a "pluperfect" in other words "a completed action in the past" .

If you do you are only in 101 or 201 class.....

It's not just the word that you look at. It's the CONSTRUCTION ! Take 4 more years of Greek.
You out of your league her my boy and don't have a leg to stand on, and if you are using the Diaglot you are VERY desperate and misinformed.