Daniel David
New Member
Helen, do you really see that much practical difference between foreknowledge and foreordination? I agree they are separate concepts and shouldn't be confused.
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Foreknowledge of God
- Thread starter freeatlast
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freeatlast
New Member
If God does not know everything, then He lacks some knowledge of something and is imperfect in his knowledge. This is not the God of the Bible.
How does scripture support your view that God does not know everything? </font>[/QUOTE]Marcia,
if you beleive that then you have to believe that Christ was not perfect because He said He did not know everything. Your logic is not only flawed but dangerous becausae it has no scripture to support complete knowledge of all eternitt's history before it happens.
freeatlast
New Member
David,
The the passage you are refering to says;
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
So yes He does and it means he decides the beginning and the end. It is not dealing with the inbetween the beginning and the end. As to Psalms that also is true, but both show that he ordains them, or decides what they will be, so of course he knows. However the things that He does not ordain He does not know unless you want to say that He ordains sin and i don't think you want to do that.
freeatlast
New Member
Helen,
you may know your chiuldren very well, but you cannot know what they will do in an absolute manner. That is rediculas. Also there is no scripture that suggests that god knows all that will happen. if there isgive it.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Well at least you spelled a non-ominiscient god properly.
FAL,
Your error is based on the (false) belief that God is somehow bound by time (i.e. your repeated comments that He cannot know what is going to happen). This ASSUMES a cause and effect that is only possibly WITHIN time. Since He is OUTSIDE of time (as scripture plainly indicates), He is not bound by cause and effect.
Once again, to say that God lacks in knowledge is to say He is not God. BY DEFINITION, God CANNOT lack any degree of ANY attribute that He has. (I.E. God is unchanging, as scripture says. But to lack in knowledge and then gain knowledge is to change with regard to that knowledge. However, to measure an absolute change means measuring against ANOTHER absolute. Therefore, you must postulate a GREATER absolute than your definition of God by which to measure that change. As a result, God is no longer God, because He is not the absolute.)
Your error is based on the (false) belief that God is somehow bound by time (i.e. your repeated comments that He cannot know what is going to happen). This ASSUMES a cause and effect that is only possibly WITHIN time. Since He is OUTSIDE of time (as scripture plainly indicates), He is not bound by cause and effect.
Once again, to say that God lacks in knowledge is to say He is not God. BY DEFINITION, God CANNOT lack any degree of ANY attribute that He has. (I.E. God is unchanging, as scripture says. But to lack in knowledge and then gain knowledge is to change with regard to that knowledge. However, to measure an absolute change means measuring against ANOTHER absolute. Therefore, you must postulate a GREATER absolute than your definition of God by which to measure that change. As a result, God is no longer God, because He is not the absolute.)
Marcia
Active Member
I thought we were talking about God the Father. When Jesus was the God-man on earth, apparently he chose to set aside this piece of information. He did not set aside his deity to do this. Also, since he was on earth as a man, I do not view it as imperfect for him to choose not to know this. Also, I think choosing not to know and not knowing are 2 different things.
However, to say God the Father does not know everything is a very serious statement. You are saying that He is lacking in knowledge of something and therefore cannot be omniscient or perfect. What kind of God would it be who did not know everything? I'll tell you -- it would be either the Process Theology God or the Open Theist God, and they are not the God of the Bible.
I agree with danrusdad and what he said. He made some good points.
Well, DD, if they are separate concepts and shouldn't be confused, then you have answered your own question. There is a great practical difference!
Foreordination means something is ordered to occur. That means it is in the will of the person ordering it to occur that it happen.
Foreknowledge is knowing something will happen whether or not you want it to happen.
Unless you want to claim that all sin, death, suffering, masochism, and other horrors were God's will for us, then you have to definitely separate foreordination and foreknowledge.
Unless, of course, you think God didn't know these would happen!
But we both know that is not true on the basis of Revelation 13:8 itself, if nothing else.
He knew what would happen. At the risk of angering you, it was because He created us with free will. He KNEW we would use it wrongly. On the other hand, if we did not have free will, we would not be able to love, either God or man, and love is the reason we were created. But love is not love if it is programmed in.
Did He WANT it to happen? All this sin and suffering and death? Jesus cried at Lazarus' tomb. He pleaded in the Garden for some other way.
God allowed what He did not want to happen to happen. But He knew it would happen.
There is an enormous difference between foreordination and foreknowledge.
To the person who said I could not know all of what my children would do, I never said I could or did! But there were instances in which, because I knew each quite well, that given a choice he or she was confronted with, I knew what that choice would be. Maybe it was as simple as "Do you want vanilla or chocolate ice cream?" Sometimes it was a bit more important. But I was just trying to demonstrate the concept, no claim total knowledge of my children. At ages 19-30 they still surprise me in many ways!
It is only God who is not surprised. He knew all along. He's God.
Daniel David
New Member
Helen, you will not anger me. I do not argue the free will part. I was simply saying from a practical point of view.
1. Foreknowledge - God knows all that will happen.
2. Foreordination - God wills what will happen.
Either way, What will happen cannot change. This is the practical aspect.
I get the theological difference.
1. Foreknowledge - God knows all that will happen.
2. Foreordination - God wills what will happen.
Either way, What will happen cannot change. This is the practical aspect.
I get the theological difference.
freeatlast
New Member
danrusdad
the scriptures never teach that knowing all history before it happens is one of His attributes. That is man made not God revealed.
freeatlast
New Member
I thought we were talking about God the Father. When Jesus was the God-man on earth, apparently he chose to set aside this piece of information. He did not set aside his deity to do this. Also, since he was on earth as a man, I do not view it as imperfect for him to choose not to know this. Also, I think choosing not to know and not knowing are 2 different things.
However, to say God the Father does not know everything is a very serious statement. You are saying that He is lacking in knowledge of something and therefore cannot be omniscient or perfect. What kind of God would it be who did not know everything? I'll tell you -- it would be either the Process Theology God or the Open Theist God, and they are not the God of the Bible.
I agree with danrusdad and what he said. He made some good points. </font>[/QUOTE]Marcia,
you are simply making ways to get around the scriptures. There is no way to know if Jesus put off knowledge or never had a particula part of knowledge about His return. What we need to do is accept what he says. He did not know and leave it there. There is no reason to believe, based on scripture that he knows today. And based on scripture there is every reason to believe thta God does nto know all history. For Him to say that it repents him to have ever made men because they sinned so badly and to know at the time of Him creating them what they would do makes no sense at all. He evidently did not know thta we would go so far in sin.
freeatlast
New Member
To the person who said I could not know all of what my children would do, I never said I could or did! But there were instances in which, because I knew each quite well, that given a choice he or she was confronted with, I knew what that choice would be. Maybe it was as simple as "Do you want vanilla or chocolate ice cream?" Sometimes it was a bit more important. But I was just trying to demonstrate the concept, no claim total knowledge of my children. At ages 19-30 they still surprise me in many ways!
No you did not know. You are over stating your ability. You may have had a good idea and the possibilities of what you thought may have been very high, but you DID NOT KNOW even in the simplest thing what your children would do unless you are claiming omnescience for yourself.
Also based on scriptures there are those scriptures that give reason to believe thta god does not know all history before it happens. There is no scriptures that even suggest that he knows all history so the logical conclussion is thta he does not.
No you did not know. You are over stating your ability. You may have had a good idea and the possibilities of what you thought may have been very high, but you DID NOT KNOW even in the simplest thing what your children would do unless you are claiming omnescience for yourself.
Also based on scriptures there are those scriptures that give reason to believe thta god does not know all history before it happens. There is no scriptures that even suggest that he knows all history so the logical conclussion is thta he does not.
Marcia
Active Member
This is one of the same passages that Open Theists use, btw. Their arguments have all been refuted. Earlier in this thread, I gave the names of 2 books and a link to a page with articles that take on the argument that God does not know all the future.
When the Bible says that God was sorry he had created man, this in no way implies God did not know man would sin! He is expressing sorrow and disapproval on what man did.
John Piper remarks on this passage about God feeling sorry he had made man:
There is a one page article on Divine Repentance by R C Sproul (and I am not even a Calvinist!)at
http://www.doctrine.net/divinerepentance.html
The Bible also says that Jesus was slain "from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13.9). How could that be if God did not know man would sin?
freeatlast
New Member
Marcia,
let me answer the last first. The passage in Rev 13:8 does not say before the foundation of the world. It says from the foundation. In other words once the fall happened the plan of God for man was put into action.
In Luke we have the same word used;
Luk 11:50 That 2443 the blood 129 of all 3956 the prophets 4396, which 3588 was shed 1632 from 575 the foundation 2602 of the world 2889, may be required 1567 of 575 this 5026 generation 1074
However when God wants us to know that He did something before the foundation He adds the word before.
Jhn 17:24 Father 3962, I will 2309 that 2443 they also 2548, whom 3739 thou hast given 1325 me 3427, be 5600 with 3326 me 1700 where 3699 I 1473 am 1510 ; that 2443 they may behold 2334 my 1699 glory 1391, which 3739 thou hast given 1325 me 3427: for 3754 thou lovedst 25 me 3165 before 4253 the foundation 2602 of the world 2889.
Certain things He ordains or purposes to take place and those things He certainly does know. The explanation that Piper gives is not acceptable. He is adding to scripture in the explanation.
Here is what was said;
When the Bible says that God was sorry He had created man, this in no way implies God did not know man would sin! He is expressing sorrow and disapproval on what man did.
That is not correct. God is not simply expressing sorrow over what man has become, but what He did in creating them, read the passage;
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Here is another;
1Sa 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul [to be] king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
Both give clear evidence that God did not know the extent of sin that men would go to.
You also gave this;
John Piper remarks on this passage about God feeling sorry he had made man:
let me answer the last first. The passage in Rev 13:8 does not say before the foundation of the world. It says from the foundation. In other words once the fall happened the plan of God for man was put into action.
In Luke we have the same word used;
Luk 11:50 That 2443 the blood 129 of all 3956 the prophets 4396, which 3588 was shed 1632 from 575 the foundation 2602 of the world 2889, may be required 1567 of 575 this 5026 generation 1074
However when God wants us to know that He did something before the foundation He adds the word before.
Jhn 17:24 Father 3962, I will 2309 that 2443 they also 2548, whom 3739 thou hast given 1325 me 3427, be 5600 with 3326 me 1700 where 3699 I 1473 am 1510 ; that 2443 they may behold 2334 my 1699 glory 1391, which 3739 thou hast given 1325 me 3427: for 3754 thou lovedst 25 me 3165 before 4253 the foundation 2602 of the world 2889.
Certain things He ordains or purposes to take place and those things He certainly does know. The explanation that Piper gives is not acceptable. He is adding to scripture in the explanation.
Here is what was said;
When the Bible says that God was sorry He had created man, this in no way implies God did not know man would sin! He is expressing sorrow and disapproval on what man did.
That is not correct. God is not simply expressing sorrow over what man has become, but what He did in creating them, read the passage;
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Here is another;
1Sa 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul [to be] king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
Both give clear evidence that God did not know the extent of sin that men would go to.
You also gave this;
John Piper remarks on this passage about God feeling sorry he had made man:
FAL, FAL, FAL...
Your argument boils down to an argument from silence, quote:
"the scriptures never teach that knowing all history before it happens is one of His attributes".
This alone makes your argument suspect. It is one of the weakest of argument forms. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Do you base all of your belief on whether the Bible explicitly states it to be true?
To be consistent in your theology you must also NOT believe that 2 + 2 = 4. After all the Bible nowhere says this! Do you see where your logic leads? However, something tells me that you only selectively apply this logic when it supports what you want to believe.
There are many areas of truth that are not explicitly laid out in scripture. Mathematics, as I just stated, is one. Laws of Nature and Laws of Logic as well.
In fact, the laws of logic are the most applicable to your argument, as I alluded to in my last post. Logic demands that, BY DEFINITION, God CANNOT lack in any attribute that He has. You failed to respond to this in my last post.
Again, for God not have knowledge about the future (and again, this ASSUMES God is bound by time, something we know FROM SCRIPTURE is not true), and then gain that knowledge, is to say that God has CHANGED with regard to His knowledge.
However, to say this forces a contradiction: God, by definition, cannot lack in knowledge, but according to you, He does.
There are only 2 options out of this mess: 1) God is not God, and there is a higher absolute above Him by which to measure change, or 2) your assertion is wrong and He does know all.
Further, your repeated assertion that no scripture supports this belief is flatly wrong. The scripture CLEARLY states that God DOES NOT change:
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is NO variableness, NEITHER shadow of turning.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT;
These 2 verses go hand-in-hand with the laws of logic. God cannot and does not change with regard to any attribute that He has.
Therefore, your belief is shown to be incorrect according to the laws of logic and the scripture.
Your argument boils down to an argument from silence, quote:
"the scriptures never teach that knowing all history before it happens is one of His attributes".
This alone makes your argument suspect. It is one of the weakest of argument forms. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Do you base all of your belief on whether the Bible explicitly states it to be true?
To be consistent in your theology you must also NOT believe that 2 + 2 = 4. After all the Bible nowhere says this! Do you see where your logic leads? However, something tells me that you only selectively apply this logic when it supports what you want to believe.
There are many areas of truth that are not explicitly laid out in scripture. Mathematics, as I just stated, is one. Laws of Nature and Laws of Logic as well.
In fact, the laws of logic are the most applicable to your argument, as I alluded to in my last post. Logic demands that, BY DEFINITION, God CANNOT lack in any attribute that He has. You failed to respond to this in my last post.
Again, for God not have knowledge about the future (and again, this ASSUMES God is bound by time, something we know FROM SCRIPTURE is not true), and then gain that knowledge, is to say that God has CHANGED with regard to His knowledge.
However, to say this forces a contradiction: God, by definition, cannot lack in knowledge, but according to you, He does.
There are only 2 options out of this mess: 1) God is not God, and there is a higher absolute above Him by which to measure change, or 2) your assertion is wrong and He does know all.
Further, your repeated assertion that no scripture supports this belief is flatly wrong. The scripture CLEARLY states that God DOES NOT change:
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is NO variableness, NEITHER shadow of turning.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT;
These 2 verses go hand-in-hand with the laws of logic. God cannot and does not change with regard to any attribute that He has.
Therefore, your belief is shown to be incorrect according to the laws of logic and the scripture.
freeatlast
New Member
There is no scriptual evidense that God knows all history.
Marcia
Active Member
Argument from silence, as danrusdad pointed out.
So what time period would it be "before the world began?"
God is either omniscient or He is not. If you believe that he is not, which is what you are arguing, please bear the implications of that in mind.
You will eventually have to embrace Open Theism (which it seems you have) or Process Theology where not only do you have a God who does not know the future, but a God who changes. If you have a God who changes, then there is no absolute standard anywhere for us fallen creatures because there can then be nothing unalterable and eternally the same to measure change by. God ceases to be the standard for all goodness and he is no longer the Rock. Everything is then relative.
Clark Pinnock took this road. Once an evangelical (and still calls himself that), he first denied eternal punishment for the lost. Then he advocate open theism. Now he is saying that God has a body.
In other words, taking away God's omniscience will eventually lead to making God more and more like man (actually, the Mormons already did this!).
Is that the kind of God we worship and know from God's word? It's not my God, that's for sure.
That's it?!?!
That's your (repeated) response?
Therefore, you also believe:
1) There is no scriptural evidence that 2+2=4
2) There is no scriptural evidence that gravity exists
3) There is no scriptural evidence that I am alive
4) etc, etc, etc...
Direct scriptural revelation is NOT the only method that God has chosen to reveal truth to us. Again, math, scientific law, logical laws, etc.
Once again, you ignore the plain arguments that soundly disprove your belief and simply hang on to the mantra "the Bible doesn't say it..."
Once again, taking what scripture (the 2 scriptures I quoted for you) has given us and what logic reveals to us about the nature of God, the only conclusion that is sound is that God is omniscient and knows ALL. No equivocation.
I guess you'll continue to ignore the evidence given you and hang on to what you want to believe. Why not disprove my arguments, if they're wrong, instead of repeating what you have already said?
Do you also believe that God:
1) does not love all, only those He ordained to love?
2) cannot do anything possible, only those things He foreordained to do?
3) (insert any atttribute of God, and then minimize it to your own belief)
This is a dangerous, slippery slope and will eventually lead to a total denial of who and what God is.