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Forgiveness
- Thread starter Teemo
- Start date
Luke 17:3
Is Forgiveness conditional or unconditional? Paul could have easily agreed with Barnabas and continued on the journey but he saw the need to separate and he went in a different direction. I believe that He was lead of God about everything. Paul cared a lot for Barnaba and John Mark (as a mentor). Paul went uncontested on several occasions, when he reasoned with the Apostles concerning their unfavorable behavior against the Doctrine of Christ. Similar to 2 Tim 2:15-26. The Apostles loved God enough to be ready-to-forgive and quick-to-repent. Why didn't this work with Paul and Barnabas? Bad things happen when Believers assert authority or control, oppose to Reasoning with one another according to Truth. I believe Barnabas was borderline guilty of black-mail (reserve the right to be wrong). Nothing is more important to God than the ministry of Evangelism, even more so, to impair or impede this great ministry. It's never good when we grieve God.
Unity
Is Forgiveness conditional or unconditional? Paul could have easily agreed with Barnabas and continued on the journey but he saw the need to separate and he went in a different direction. I believe that He was lead of God about everything. Paul cared a lot for Barnaba and John Mark (as a mentor). Paul went uncontested on several occasions, when he reasoned with the Apostles concerning their unfavorable behavior against the Doctrine of Christ. Similar to 2 Tim 2:15-26. The Apostles loved God enough to be ready-to-forgive and quick-to-repent. Why didn't this work with Paul and Barnabas? Bad things happen when Believers assert authority or control, oppose to Reasoning with one another according to Truth. I believe Barnabas was borderline guilty of black-mail (reserve the right to be wrong). Nothing is more important to God than the ministry of Evangelism, even more so, to impair or impede this great ministry. It's never good when we grieve God.
Unity
Unity... is a necessity. God's math always equals 1. One God, One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One Gospel, One Body, One Sabbath, One Saviour etc. I greatly appreciate your response Judith. I believe the Bible requires us to walk in unity (in agreement) with the Word of Truth. This is a key part to us exercising Serving Faith according to the Power/Anointing of the Holy Spirit (God) that we absolutely need to perform the Good Works, that glorify our God. Who then, will in return store up our rewards in Heaven, along with many other great benefits here in the earth, as a result of His Faithfulness towards us because of our Love & obedience to Him. John 14:15
However, I do follow where you're coming from but slightly differ. I believe when David repented his relationship with God was fully restored. However, he still had to suffer the consequences for being disobedient, just as he did with the death of his first born infant child, whom he boldly declared that he would see again in Heaven, Bless God!
Which leads me back to the original question. According to Luke 17:3; Do you believe Forgiveness is conditional or unconditional? I've read many different views and heard many different responses that strongly support both views. At the-end-of-the-day, it's imperative that good logic always be supported by the Word of Truth. God Bless!
Happy New Year to all, may it be graced with God's Love, good health and great blessings!
Unity
However, I do follow where you're coming from but slightly differ. I believe when David repented his relationship with God was fully restored. However, he still had to suffer the consequences for being disobedient, just as he did with the death of his first born infant child, whom he boldly declared that he would see again in Heaven, Bless God!
Which leads me back to the original question. According to Luke 17:3; Do you believe Forgiveness is conditional or unconditional? I've read many different views and heard many different responses that strongly support both views. At the-end-of-the-day, it's imperative that good logic always be supported by the Word of Truth. God Bless!
Happy New Year to all, may it be graced with God's Love, good health and great blessings!
Unity
Isn’t there an old Regan saying that goes, “trust but verify”
I know it sounds convoluted however in order to trust, to completely trust a person, you have to have the confidence in their capabilities, so if there is a betrayal of your confidence for whatever, was that betrayal intentional or was it a misdirection based off off of inability to understand. So that should answer your question, which is that forgiveness is conditional.
I know it sounds convoluted however in order to trust, to completely trust a person, you have to have the confidence in their capabilities, so if there is a betrayal of your confidence for whatever, was that betrayal intentional or was it a misdirection based off off of inability to understand. So that should answer your question, which is that forgiveness is conditional.
My sentiments as well, particularly in accordance with Luke 17:3. Here, the bible clearly stipulates the required condition in order for someone to Forgive. The key to this matter is not people playing God, but to Love the offender enough to "Help" them in the mist of their error. I'm blown-away by how many people who do not agree on the meaning of Forgiveness. Rightly dividing the meaning of Forgiveness is practically non-negotiable. At a minimum it's extremely important. It can be very costly and trigger a lot of confusion if people are misled people on this matter. Certainly, it's not a point we should toy with people over. I firmly believe the bible teaches that Forgiveness is what gets rid of the sin/offenses. Ounce we Forgive, it's as if the matter never happened, at least Spiritually speaking. We all know that our flesh will always present an unpredictable "hidden disclaimer" against the Spirit. This viewpoint of Forgiveness is an extremely important, but unfortunately many people reject it. I always humbly reserve the right to be wrong. I am unlearned in a lot of ways, but I'm eager to learn, beginning by sharing what I believe, following as close to scripture as possible. as a result, we may reason together and land safely on the Truth.
I have a strong feeling that Paul and Barnabas is a good example to help understand Forgiveness. I believe all three key elements are at work here; Love, Forgiveness, and Repentance. Paul ALWAYS was focused on winning souls to Christ and he really depended heavily on Barnabas. However, Barnabas ignored God's will as he tried to force his will on Paul. Act (13 and 15) Barnabas's logic made sense according to sight, but lead to this "sharp disagreement" which was no light matter in the least. Paul was angry and he suffered severely in two crucial ways. By severing his relationship with Barnabas it's hard to ignore, 1) Paul Loved John Mark dearly and always had his best-interest at heart. 2) Pau Loved Barnabas dearly and always had his best-interest at heart. If what Barnabas was proposing was so reasonable, I don't believe Paul would've severed the relationship. I actually believe Paul would've been happy to accommodate them. Even though Paul was angry and hurt, he and Barnabas was able to reconcile LATER, at a great cost God and the people. I just cannot buy-off on the happy ending concept that many people associate with this matter. I get it, but the weightier matter must be accounted for. I do not believe God was pleased with the rift in this matter because God lead Paul to evangelize the people for a reason. John Mark would've been just fine waiting until God said that he was ready and trustworthy travel abroad. Seemingly, Barnabas could really benefit from a well designed Discipleship class. (Light Humor) This is largely my personal view, as close to scripture as I know, as a laymen. God Bless!
Unity
I have a strong feeling that Paul and Barnabas is a good example to help understand Forgiveness. I believe all three key elements are at work here; Love, Forgiveness, and Repentance. Paul ALWAYS was focused on winning souls to Christ and he really depended heavily on Barnabas. However, Barnabas ignored God's will as he tried to force his will on Paul. Act (13 and 15) Barnabas's logic made sense according to sight, but lead to this "sharp disagreement" which was no light matter in the least. Paul was angry and he suffered severely in two crucial ways. By severing his relationship with Barnabas it's hard to ignore, 1) Paul Loved John Mark dearly and always had his best-interest at heart. 2) Pau Loved Barnabas dearly and always had his best-interest at heart. If what Barnabas was proposing was so reasonable, I don't believe Paul would've severed the relationship. I actually believe Paul would've been happy to accommodate them. Even though Paul was angry and hurt, he and Barnabas was able to reconcile LATER, at a great cost God and the people. I just cannot buy-off on the happy ending concept that many people associate with this matter. I get it, but the weightier matter must be accounted for. I do not believe God was pleased with the rift in this matter because God lead Paul to evangelize the people for a reason. John Mark would've been just fine waiting until God said that he was ready and trustworthy travel abroad. Seemingly, Barnabas could really benefit from a well designed Discipleship class. (Light Humor) This is largely my personal view, as close to scripture as I know, as a laymen. God Bless!
Unity
I have seen forgiveness as the mechanism to re-establish a relationship. This means that while one person can overlook a fault, it is not the same thing as forgiveness. I see that one has to recognize the wrong they have done and ask for forgiveness. Since hardly anyone will think they have done anything wrong, two party forgiveness would be less common. An example of forgiveness might be seen with John writing the believing remnant;
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The word confess is homologos (to say the same words). The idea being that if one says the same thing about what they did that God would, they bring themselves into alignment with God (truth) and a relationship can be restored.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The word confess is homologos (to say the same words). The idea being that if one says the same thing about what they did that God would, they bring themselves into alignment with God (truth) and a relationship can be restored.
And:
10 | Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thy house, because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. 2 Sam 12 |
I'd add, disunity is not necessarily a result of error.
Paul and Barnabas disagreed about whether or not to allow John Mark to participate in their mission. Barnabas wanted to take him but Paul did not.
Was Barnabas wrong to forgive and restore John Mark? No, not really. It was up to Barnabas.
Was Paul wrong to forbid John Mark from going because he had previously left? No, mot really. It was up to Paul.
Forgiveness here is not an issue between Paul and Barnabas. I don't think it was even Paul being hesitant to forgive John Mark.
Rather, I agree with you that we are talking about reinstatement. Barnabas saw value in taking John Mark where Paul saw a potential liability. The disagreement was subjective and worked out for the good (it was best that Barnabas take John Mark and Paul take Silas).
I think you may have a different view of forgiveness to mine. I see nowhere that either Paul or Barnabas did anything that demanded forgiveness.
They disagreed on whether John Mark should come with them and could not come to agreement, so they went their separate ways. What was the result? Two missionary groups going out instead of one. God used their disagreement for good! Unless one of them used unchristian language against the other, or one accused the other of heresy or something like that, I don't see the need for apology.
It is all very well saying that unity is paramount, but they couldn't chop John Mark in two and take half of him with them. It seems to me that it all worked out fine.
In the city about 6 miles away from me, there is a large Bible-believing, Gospel-preaching church which is part of the Church of England (Anglican). Because of the situation within the C of E (proposed blessings of same-sex 'marriages' etc.), some of the congregation wanted to leave, but the majority wanted to stay. The upshot has been that about 50 or 60 members have set up a new church outside the C of E. That church is now drawing in over 100 each Lord's Day, but the original church is still as big as it was before. The division has resulted in multiplication!
Unity is vital, but it is unity in spirit, not organizational unity
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