"Free will is TRUE"

[AAA]

Gosip!

On what basis?

I don't want to put words in your mouth...Is this what you (freewillers) believe as some people on this board think about you?


"Free will- We are saved by our works (works is anything that you do and trust in for the salvation of your soul: belief, repentence, confession and etc.), and Grace... "

The Gosple of Jesus Christ!
"God's Grace- We are saved by GRACE!"

The Gosple of Christ!
"God's Grace- We do have the responsibility to respond to GOD's call of Grace, but It is He who saves us, not you! We can't chose HIM unless HE first chooses us! "

How can we come to HIM, unless the Spirit draw us? We can't....

How can we chose HIM if we are/were dead in our sins? We can't...

Can a our carnal (mind) man understand the things of GOD? We can't...

Unless, God inlightens us by HIS Spirit...

Please read: Eph.2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and the whole books of Romans and Galations.

Grace and the WORKs of the Law don't mix...Read...Galations

thanks:godisgood:

 

[Sularis]

It's a pity

Free Will says - we have the responsibility to choose

BUT we cant choose until God calls - thankfully for us God keeps on calling

We dont initiate nor can we - God does



If you are going to misrepresent "Free-willers" at least admit yer going to the pelagianist extreme

Also - we dont elect ourselves - we believe or should i say i believe that election is something special like an anointing

 

[AAA]

Free Will says - we have the responsibility to choose

BUT we cant choose until God calls - thankfully for us God keeps on calling

We dont initiate nor can we - God does



If you are going to misrepresent "Free-willers" at least admit yer going to the pelagianist extreme

Also - we dont elect ourselves - we believe or should i say i believe that election is something special like an anointing

I am not trying to misrepresent free willers, but I am trying to find out how exactly do ya'll believe about God's salvation by grace without any man made works.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Do we have free-will? Absolutely.

Is our free-will the agent that provides our salvation? No not at all

Is God's Grace irresistable? Sure


Dr. John Phillips illustrates it best:


Suppose a novice was to play Bobby Fischer in a game of chess. The chess champion (Bobby Fischer) has at his disposal countless way to open and close the game, and all kinds of strategies in between. The novice barely knows how to put the peices on the board and has only learned lately the kind of moves each piece can make. The peices are put on the board, and the game begins.

Each Player has a measure of soveriegnty over the board, and each has the power of choice. Each can make any move he likes, so long as his moves are within the rules of the game.

It takes the chess master (Bobby Fischer) a few scant minutes to declare the game over. The novice says "The game can't be over. there are lots of moves I can still make." The champion says" Go ahead and make them. The game is over." And, shure enough, in two or three more moves he check mates the novice.

Now, not once did the chess master interfere with his opponent's power of choice or his right to make the moves he did. The chess master, however, having so much more skill, had a greater soveriegnty over the board. He did not interfere with his adversary's moves; he simply overruled them.

It is like that in the great chess game of life. We have been endowed with human will, with a measure of soveriegnty over the moves we make. We have freedom to choose and to excercise our will. So, we make our choices, and God makes His. He can check mate us at will because His soveriegnty is so much greater than ours. The wonderful thing is, however, that God really wants us to win. He is eager to show us, day by day, the steps to a holy, happy, and heaven-bound life.

 

[johnp.]

Do we have free-will? Absolutely.

Why don't you use it to become perfect Timothy? If you have free will absolutely then any fault in you must be one of wilful sin, no?

Is our free-will the agent that provides our salvation? No not at all

Your free will is the active agent in procuring it, it isn't forced on you is it? If you accept the offer then you save yourself using the means God provided. You must take credit for your own salvation, God having made it possible but not certain, you make it certain.

Each can make any move he likes, so long as his moves are within the rules of the game.

Can you tell me what rules govern God's behaviour and where can we find these rules in scripture so we do not have to take your word for it please, or have you added to the revelation?

Now, not once did the chess master interfere with his opponent's power of choice...

Interfering with your opponent's power of choice is the whole point of the game isn't it? To force your opponent into only making moves that you want him to. Disrupt, deceive and conquer is the name of the game. Best war-game ever. Strange using chess to express free will.

The wonderful thing is, however, that God really wants us to win.

Why play against us then?

john.

 

[skypair]

Do we have free-will? Absolutely.

Is our free-will the agent that provides our salvation? No not at all

Is God's Grace irresistable? Sure


Dr. John Phillips illustrates it best:...

Wow! I hope that is not the Dr. Phillips I know here in Memphis. I can't believe he would be so naive as to substitute "sovereignty" in place of the concept of "foreknowledge." Even by the illustration, Bobby has the upper hand in "foreknowledge," not in control of the board.

Whoa! That was way-bad!

skypair

 

[Jkdbuck76]

I am not trying to misrepresent free willers, but I am trying to find out how exactly do ya'll believe about God's salvation by grace without any man made works.

The Cross. That is where we were saved.
That was in my opinion the hardest thing
God ever had to do, was to pull his ox (humankind)
out of a ditch.

Edit: JV McGee had a good sermon on divine election v human will....too bad it isn't on the Web!

 

[skypair]

I suppose you title the OP "gosip" (sic) because it ain't true, right? Cause You clearly slander the free will side of the debate.

I don't want to put words in your mouth...Is this what you (freewillers) believe as some people on this board think about you?


"Free will- We are saved by our works (works is anything that you do and trust in for the salvation of your soul: belief, repentence, confession and etc.), and Grace... "

There are some who believe that. We know who and what you have in mind here and it ain't Baptists.

Second, "belief" is demonstrably (Rom 4:5) NOT a "work." I wish you would get this through your pretty head -- "But to him that But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him on him..." Here's a man who does NO works but believes.

The Gosple of Jesus Christ!
"God's Grace- We are saved by GRACE!"

Yeah, yeah, yeah -- "unmeritted favor," right? Well, we DIDN'T work for it as I just proved to you.

The Gosple of Christ!
"God's Grace- We do have the responsibility to respond to GOD's call of Grace, but It is He who saves us, not you! We can't chose HIM unless HE first chooses us! "

What, pray tell, is YOUR response then? I've heard John MacArthur use that word and he insists on something VERY akin to works -- "Lordship Salvation!" That is, your response is "holy living" as I understand it -- "works" by some people's estimation.

How can we come to HIM, unless the Spirit draw us? We can't....

The Spirit draws EVERYONE.

How can we chose HIM if we are/were dead in our sins? We can't...

The "Lazarus" model again. Lazarus was totally dead, in his grave. And THAT is the same as being spiritually dead in sin?? No, that is a "red herring," dear.

Can a our carnal (mind) man understand the things of GOD? We can't...

We CAN understand the simple gospel -- which is why Paul ONLY preached that to the Crointhians when he visited them first, 1Cor 2:1-5. Read up on that one -- in 2:6 he begins to teach the things that the lost CAN'T understand, the "hidden wisdom" of God.

Grace and the WORKs of the Law don't mix...Read...Galations

Better go tell John Mac!

skypair

 

[johnp.]

I wish you would get this through your pretty head...
No, that is a "red herring," dear.

Forgive me skypair I thought you was a man and have refered to you as a man? I apologise if I have caused offence.

john.

 

[AAA]

I suppose you title the OP "gosip" (sic) because it ain't true, right? Cause You clearly slander the free will side of the debate.

I did NOT slander, because I am talking about how the calvinist see the free willers on this board...I simply asked you in anOther way : Are what the calvinist saying about the free willers true, or is it gossip? Yet you accuse me of slander for the things that they think and say about the free willers?

There are some who believe that. We know who and what you have in mind here and it ain't Baptists.

What I had in mind is to clear up any misconceived or misrepresentations that the calvinist are saying about the free willer on here...And yes it is a christian and a baptist thing to do, because we as baptist do not believe in gossip...DO you believe in gossip???

Second, "belief" is demonstrably (Rom 4:5) NOT a "work." I wish you would get this through your pretty head -- "But to him that But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him on him..." Here's a man who does NO works but believes.

Pretty head....is not a christian tune to say....

Belief can be used in the context of wrok for those who believe they save themselves by it, instead of putting thier trust fully in JESUS christ as the ONLY saviour. Now, in the context of Abraham believein g in GOD, it is NOT a work, because abraham's trust was fully in GOD for his salvation, not in his belief about GOD...Abraham God and saviour was GOD, NOT himself believing in GOD...

Plus belief is a work of GOD that HE does within us.....

Yeah, yeah, yeah -- "unmeritted favor," right? Well, we DIDN'T work for it as I just proved to you.

Sarcasism? My spelling...........lol

The "Lazarus" model again. Lazarus was totally dead, in his grave. And THAT is the same as being spiritually dead in sin?? No, that is a "red herring," dear.

That modal teaches salvation by GRACE, inwhich the SBC not a calvinist denominations says that they believe that salvation can't be earned, because it is BY GRACE! So, they agree with the idea of "men being dead in sin".

We CAN understand the simple gospel -- which is why Paul ONLY preached that to the Crointhians when he visited them first, 1Cor 2:1-5. Read up on that one -- in 2:6 he begins to teach the things that the lost CAN'T understand, the "hidden wisdom" of God.

We can only understand the Gospel if GOD inlightens our mind, because the carnal mind can not understand the things of GOD. Only the spiritual mind by being inlighten by the Holy Spirit can understand the things of GOD..

skypair

What do you have aagaint me (a non-calvinist)?

I did not mean to offend you by clearing up any of thier misrepresentations of the free will stance?

:godisgood:

 

[J.D.]

What do you have aagaint me (a non-calvinist)?

I did not mean to offend you by clearing up any of thier misrepresentations of the free will stance?

:godisgood:

AAA, you haven't been around very long. Be aware that in the non-calvinist camp there are outright Pelagians, Socinians, Sandemanians, semi-pelagians, modern arminians, and a few classic arminians (classic arminians usually actually have some understanding of theology, like Allen, although I don't think he would appreciate being called a classic arminian). And still others are just shade-tree theologians that blend their notions in with a dose of superiority so that everyone but them is going to hell. Get used to it.

 

[Allan]

AAA, you haven't been around very long. Be aware that in the non-calvinist camp there are outright Pelagians, Socinians, Sandemanians, semi-pelagians, modern arminians, and a few classic arminians (classic arminians usually actually have some understanding of theology, like Allen, although I don't think he would appreciate being called a classic arminian). And still others are just shade-tree theologians that blend their notions in with a dose of superiority so that everyone but them is going to hell. Get used to it.

Now THAT is funny! I was just told the other day by a 'Classical Arminian' that I was a 5 point Calvinist if not a Hyper! :laugh:

>>>Edited In<<<
Before you 'label' people, make sure the label is an accurate one. Classical Arminianism holds that one can loose their salvation. I do not and never have. This among other issues I have with classical Arminianism is the reason I do not believe nor hold to their view of scripture.