Free Will ? Not in the Bible.

[rodneyo777]

I don't believe the Bible teaches free will, it's a man made doctrine: Truth is revealed, it can not be from the mind of one man to the mind of another. It's a spirit thing, we are discussing spiritual life, not algebra.

A greater level of trust and faith is needed when we believe the truth, that WE REST in HIS hands: The truth is; there is no free will.

I don't believe in free will, at least not for those who are called...Basic bible reading will reveal this truth...

Here's how:
Adam sinned, yet in Genesis we read the story of, Sarah, and Abraham, a king takes her and God says to him, give her back, for I have kept you from sinning against me. Why not keep Adam from sinning? Because God had a plan, no original sin, no cross and crucifixion, no marriage supper of the Lamb. All those men in the bible did not cooperate, helping God create a masterful story, they were "Moved" to do so.

Then in the story of Moses, we have Moses getting kicked out of Egypt because he killed and Egyptian. Now imagine, you have to set up that scenario so that, it would all unfold as planned...What if that guy had taken a different route or had an extra cup of coffee? He wouldn't have been a witness to the murder... and Moses would have stayed in Egypt.

David was promised a son whose kingdom would not end ("in reality Jesus", but yet humanly it was Solomon)...Solomon, the child of promise and prophecy, born out of adultery, and murder....
Or what if all those men and women in the Old Testament did exactly the right thing, how would we have all those stories.

Ex: What if God called Jonah, and Jonah said "Go to Nineveh? Sure God, I'll do it"...God says "wait now Jonah, I need you to refuse, so I can have a huge fish swallow you, I need it for this book I'm writing, called "The Bible"... Jonah says "Sorry God no can do, I have a free will, and I've decided to go"... Repeat this 70-100 times, and we have NO BIBLE STORIES...

Then of course we have Romans 9:16
16Everything then depends on God's mercy and not on what people want or do. 17In the Scriptures the Lord says to Pharaoh of Egypt, "I let you become Pharaoh, so that I could show you my power and be praised by all people on earth." 18Everything depends on what God decides to do, and he can either have pity on people or make them stubborn.

Someone may ask, (as we read in Romans 9) "How can God blame us, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?" But, my friend, I ask, "Who do you think you are to question God?

 

[Scarlett O.]

Of course there is free will.....and of course, it's Biblical.

Free will is the choice of man to sin or not to sin. Of course Jonah had free will to obey God or not obey Him. That's why God chose Jonah - because He knew that he would initially and directly disobey. God didn't cause Jonah to disobey. That's anti-Biblical. God doesn't tempt mankind to sin.

As for Pharoah - it's the same principle. God knew the evil heart of that man and that he would never submit to God. So God raised him up to that position.

And Pharaoh - being true to himself - hardened HIS OWN heart initially. After a few times of hardening his own heart, God took over and allowed that to continue. God did not force Pharaoh to sin, but used Pharaoh's rebellion for His own purposes.

Before the plagues and during the first few plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart. And the Bible says, "...as God said would happen.....". The blood, the frogs, the gnats, the flies, and the livestock dying - in all of these Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Even in the plague of the hail, the Bible says that Pharaoh "sinned and hardened his heart."

But during the boils, the locusts, the darkness, and final death plague even into the wilderness, the Bible says that the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Of course there is free will.....and of course, it's Biblical.

Free will is the choice of man to sin or not to sin. Of course Jonah had free will to obey God or not obey Him. That's why God chose Jonah - because He knew that he would initially and directly disobey. God didn't cause Jonah to disobey. That's anti-Biblical. God doesn't tempt mankind to sin.

As for Pharoah - it's the same principle. God knew the evil heart of that man and that he would never submit to God. So God raised him up to that position.

And Pharaoh - being true to himself - hardened HIS OWN heart initially. After a few times of hardening his own heart, God took over and allowed that to continue. God did not force Pharaoh to sin, but used Pharaoh's rebellion for His own purposes.

Before the plagues and during the first few plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart. And the Bible says, "...as God said would happen.....". The blood, the frogs, the gnats, the flies, and the livestock dying - in all of these Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Even in the plague of the hail, the Bible says that Pharaoh "sinned and hardened his heart."

But during the boils, the locusts, the darkness, and final death plague even into the wilderness, the Bible says that the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart.

Good response

 

[rodneyo777]

Then explain Paul's rhetorical question in Romans CH 9 verse 19...

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[rodneyo777]

I understand your point and I ponder that myself.

But if I go with your explanation, then we make it sound like God is a responder and not an initiator.

God looks down the corridor of time, to see what you will do, SO THAT HE THEN knows what to do.

 

[Revmitchell]

I understand your point and I ponder that myself.

But if I go with your explanation, then we make it sound like God is a responder and not an initiator.

God looks down the corridor of time, to see what you will do, SO THAT HE THEN knows what to do.

No it doesn't

 

[SovereignGrace]

Of course there is free will.....and of course, it's Biblical.

Free will is the choice of man to sin or not to sin. Of course Jonah had free will to obey God or not obey Him. That's why God chose Jonah - because He knew that he would initially and directly disobey. God didn't cause Jonah to disobey. That's anti-Biblical. God doesn't tempt mankind to sin.

First off, is there any of us who has ever had the ability to not sin? Sure, committing a sin is a choice, but can we live a sinless life pre- and/or post-conversion? I say no. The Romanist writer spoke this in Ro. 7:


We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.[vss. 14-20]

As long as we're entangled/ensnared in this fleshly flame, we're going to sin, no matter what we say.

As for Jonah, he acted in accordance to his nature, to rebel against God. God had one plan, Jonah another, and we know who won out. Again, we have the fleshly nature and Spiritual nature that war with each other all the time. The Romanist as spells this out at the end of the same chapter, 7:

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.[vss. 21-25]

It's at times like this that when we rebel, God then does a work in us that changes our will to His will on that given situation.

As for Pharoah - it's the same principle. God knew the evil heart of that man and that he would never submit to God. So God raised him up to that position.



And Pharaoh - being true to himself - hardened HIS OWN heart initially. After a few times of hardening his own heart, God took over and allowed that to continue. God did not force Pharaoh to sin, but used Pharaoh's rebellion for His own purposes.

You've got that wrong, imo. God told Pharaoh through Moses But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.[Ex. 9:16]

And:

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[Ro. 9:17]

God raised him up to show him, and the rest of Egypt, Who was/is Boss. God took a fallen creature and made him who he was. It was God who chose him to do what he did. Yes, God knew he would rebell, but without the effacious work upon the heart, none would ever submit to Him.

Before the plagues and during the first few plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart. And the Bible says, "...as God said would happen.....". The blood, the frogs, the gnats, the flies, and the livestock dying - in all of these Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Even in the plague of the hail, the Bible says that Pharaoh "sinned and hardened his heart."

But during the boils, the locusts, the darkness, and final death plague even into the wilderness, the Bible says that the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart.

In Ex. 4:21, God tells Moses The Lord said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. God told him He would harden Pharaoh's heart. Yes, there were times Pharaoh hardened his heart, but also God did this initially. Ex. 7:3-4 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. So there are at least two occurances in the bible that shows it wwas God who hardened Pharaoh's heart.

All of this was known by God from even before the very beginning of time. He knew what Pharaoh would do, because He ordained it to be that way.

 

[Scarlett O.]

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[Ro. 9:17]

This scripture is not saying that God forced Pharaoh - like a puppet on a string - to sin and rebel against him. God raised up a man whom God knew was evil and would never submit Him as Jesus said of men in the New Testament.

""You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."

So there are at least two occurances in the bible that shows it wwas God who hardened Pharaoh's heart.

Yes, God hardened Pharaoh's heart. But there are MORE than two occurrences that show that Pharaoh hardened his own heart and that God hardened it even more. God took an evil man, raised him up, and orchestrated circumstances to which he would rebel even more and eventually God took over Pharaoh's heart and hardened it more.

Yes, God knew he would rebel.....

.....All of this was known by God from even before the very beginning of time. He knew what Pharaoh would do, because He ordained it to be that way.

You can't have it both ways. Your first sentence says that Pharaoh sinned on his own accord. Your second sentence says God made Pharaoh sin.

It's obvious that we are not going to agree here. I hesitated to originally post because I do not do free will debates. You can have the last word.

 

[rodneyo777]

destined to destruction and destined to salvation seems like an act of God, not free will.

and God added daily those destined to salvation (sorry my paraphrase). But you get the idea.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This scripture is not saying that God forced Pharaoh - like a puppet on a string - to sin and rebel against him. God raised up a man whom God knew was evil and would never submit Him as Jesus said of men in the New Testament.

I never stated God forced Pharaoh to rebel. It was already within in has fallen will to do so. Unless God changes the heart, all do it.

""You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."

There again is the fallen nature at work within sinners. People are unwilling to come to Him, unless God changes their desires.

Yes, God hardened Pharaoh's heart. But there are MORE than two occurrences that show that Pharaoh hardened his own heart and that God hardened it even more. God took an evil man, raised him up, and orchestrated circumstances to which he would rebel even more and eventually God took over Pharaoh's heart and hardened it more.

Don't disagree. People can harden their own hearts, too.

You can't have it both ways. Your first sentence says that Pharaoh sinned on his own accord. Your second sentence says God made Pharaoh sin.

There's a true picture of man's will doing God's sovereign will. I never said God made Pharaoh do anything. He chose what he would do, and it was in accordance to God's sovereign will.

It's obvious that we are not going to agree here. I hesitated to originally post because I do not do free will debates. You can have the last word.

It's not about having the first or even last word. It's about proclaiming the truth. You have every right to believe as you do. It's good to have theses debates. Hopefully both sides can learn from them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This scripture is not saying that God forced Pharaoh - like a puppet on a string - to sin and rebel against him. God raised up a man whom God knew was evil and would never submit Him as Jesus said of men in the New Testament.

""You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."



Yes, God hardened Pharaoh's heart. But there are MORE than two occurrences that show that Pharaoh hardened his own heart and that God hardened it even more. God took an evil man, raised him up, and orchestrated circumstances to which he would rebel even more and eventually God took over Pharaoh's heart and hardened it more.



You can't have it both ways. Your first sentence says that Pharaoh sinned on his own accord. Your second sentence says God made Pharaoh sin.

It's obvious that we are not going to agree here. I hesitated to originally post because I do not do free will debates. You can have the last word.

I do not wish to pester you, but I hope to 'stimulate you to wholesome thinking'.[1 Pet. 3:1] In regards to free will, did Christ, the Son of God, the Son of Man, Immanuel, Prince of Peace, possess a free will? Please respond.


I also ask this to all on here. Did Jesus Christ, while here on earth, possess a free will?

 

[Alcott]

Free Will ? Not in the Bible.

Nor on the sign of any lawyer's office.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I do not wish to pester you, but I hope to 'stimulate you to wholesome thinking'.[1 Pet. 3:1] In regards to free will, did Christ, the Son of God, the Son of Man, Immanuel, Prince of Peace, possess a free will? Please respond.


I also ask this to all on here. Did Jesus Christ, while here on earth, possess a free will?

You are not pestering me.

Jesus told Peter when Peter cut off the servant's ear to put his sword away. He said, "Don't you know that if I wanted to that I could call on the Father and that he would at once send down 12 legions of angels to help me? However, how would the scriptures be fulfilled it I did?

Jesus most definitely had a choice - a free will to exercise if he so chose.

Yes, Jesus had a free will on this earth. The Bible says that Jesus sympathizes with our weaknesses in that he was tempted, like us, in every way - the exception being that Jesus did not sin. How could he sympathize unless he had free will and understood what temptation meant?

Jesus was hungry after those 40 days in the wilderness. Hungry to the point that the angels had to "minister" to him after it was all over. His flesh was limited. He needed food. But he did not sin.

In the Garden, Jesus asked the Father three times - three times - for "this cup" to be passed from him. He prayed "not my will, but your will". Why such a struggle - to the point of dying in the Garden (says Jesus, himself) - if he did not possess a free will that was struggling in that moment to mesh perfectly with God's will?

 

[SovereignGrace]

You are not pestering me.

Jesus told Peter when Peter cut off the servant's ear to put his sword away. He said, "Don't you know that if I wanted to that I could call on the Father and that he would at once send down 12 legions of angels to help me? However, how would the scriptures be fulfilled it I did?

Jesus most definitely had a choice - a free will to exercise if he so chose.

Yes, Jesus had a free will on this earth. The Bible says that Jesus sympathizes with our weaknesses in that he was tempted, like us, in every way - the exception being that Jesus did not sin. How could he sympathize unless he had free will and understood what temptation meant?

Jesus was hungry after those 40 days in the wilderness. Hungry to the point that the angels had to "minister" to him after it was all over. His flesh was limited. He needed food. But he did not sin.

In the Garden, Jesus asked the Father three times - three times - for "this cup" to be passed from him. He prayed "not my will, but your will". Why such a struggle - to the point of dying in the Garden (says Jesus, himself) - if he did not possess a free will that was struggling in that moment to mesh perfectly with God's will?

Think about what you're stating here for a minute. If Jesus possessed a free will, He could have sinned. If He had a free will, He could have stopped from being nailed to a cross. Therefore, making null and void all the prophetic OT scriptures declaring what He would do. He would be numbered with the transgressors.[Isa. 53:12 & Mark 15:28] He would be the lifted up just as the snake was lifted up in the wilderness.[Jn. 3:14]

If He chose not to die on the cross, then the bible, OT, would be worthless. Jesus stated He came to do what? “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work."[Jn. 4:34] For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.[Jn. 6:38]

Jesus' will was to fulfill the will of the Father. Jesus, imo, did not possess a free will.

 

[Scarlett O.]

You are I are on polar opposites of this discussion. We will never convince each other. That's why I don't like these debates.

I did think about what I said. I thought about it very carefully as I was typing the response.

I'll leave you with this poem by Richard Armor.

"If you convince me,
and I convince you,
would there not still be
two points of view?"

 

[DHK]

Think about what you're stating here for a minute. If Jesus possessed a free will, He could have sinned. If He had a free will, He could have stopped from being nailed to a cross. Therefore, making null and void all the prophetic OT scriptures declaring what He would do. He would be numbered with the transgressors.[Isa. 53:12 & Mark 15:28] He would be the lifted up just as the snake was lifted up in the wilderness.[Jn. 3:14]

If He chose not to die on the cross, then the bible, OT, would be worthless. Jesus stated He came to do what? “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work."[Jn. 4:34] For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.[Jn. 6:38]

Jesus' will was to fulfill the will of the Father. Jesus, imo, did not possess a free will.

Jesus came to do the will of his Father.
He willingly submitted himself.
He willingly went to the cross.
He willingly endured affliction.
He suffered as all men suffered that he might be able to identify with all of us.
Jesus said:
I lay my life down: I take it up again. No man takes it from me.
Of his own will he laid down his life for our sins.

If he had no will, and did not go willingly to the cross, if all were programmed, then his death for us would all be in vain.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You are I are on polar opposites of this discussion. We will never convince each other. That's why I don't like these debates.

I did think about what I said. I thought about it very carefully as I was typing the response.

I'll leave you with this poem by Richard Armor.

"If you convince me,
and I convince you,
would there not still be
two points of view?"

Thank you for your civility.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Jesus came to do the will of his Father.
He willingly submitted himself.

Yes. He submitted to His Father and was the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.[Rev. 13:8] Everything Christ did was settled in heaven before He came in the form of man. We were chosen in Christ from the creation of the world.[Eph. 1:4] We find that God's works were finished since the creation of the world.[Heb. 4:3] We can also find He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.[1 Pet. 1:20] We find that those whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.[Rev. 17:8] We also find the Lord’s work is known to him from long ago.[Acts 15:18] The plan for mankind was laid out, was settled in heaven before Adam was ever created. Yet, this plan of salvation had to take place in time.

He willingly went to the cross.
He willingly endured affliction.
He suffered as all men suffered that he might be able to identify with all of us.
Jesus said:
I lay my life down: I take it up again. No man takes it from me.
Of his own will he laid down his life for our sins.

No disagreement with the above.

If he had no will, and did not go willingly to the cross, if all were programmed, then his death for us would all be in vain.

And if He did not go to the cross, He would have made null and void all the OT prophecies concerning Him. He had to go to the cross to fulfill the OT prophecies. He had to fulfill them, He had to do the will of His Father.


Now, to both you and Scarlett;

Could Christ have laid with a harlot, lied, stolen, took God's name in vain, in other words, could Christ have broken all the 10 commands?

 

[DHK]

Could Christ have laid with a harlot, lied, stolen, took God's name in vain, in other words, could Christ have broken all the 10 commands?

Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

It is impossible for God (Christ) to lie or sin.
He is the sinless sacrifice, and yet tempted in all things such as we.
He is totally God and totally man.
In order for him to be man he had to have the will to do right and wrong, as exemplified in His Temptation when he said NO, to Satan, and resisted with his human will Satan's attacks.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't believe the Bible teaches free will, it's a man made doctrine: Truth is revealed, it can not be from the mind of one man to the mind of another. It's a spirit thing, we are discussing spiritual life, not algebra.

A greater level of trust and faith is needed when we believe the truth, that WE REST in HIS hands: The truth is; there is no free will.

I don't believe in free will, at least not for those who are called...Basic bible reading will reveal this truth...

Here's how:
Adam sinned, yet in Genesis we read the story of, Sarah, and Abraham, a king takes her and God says to him, give her back, for I have kept you from sinning against me. Why not keep Adam from sinning? Because God had a plan, no original sin, no cross and crucifixion, no marriage supper of the Lamb. All those men in the bible did not cooperate, helping God create a masterful story, they were "Moved" to do so.

Then in the story of Moses, we have Moses getting kicked out of Egypt because he killed and Egyptian. Now imagine, you have to set up that scenario so that, it would all unfold as planned...What if that guy had taken a different route or had an extra cup of coffee? He wouldn't have been a witness to the murder... and Moses would have stayed in Egypt.

David was promised a son whose kingdom would not end ("in reality Jesus", but yet humanly it was Solomon)...Solomon, the child of promise and prophecy, born out of adultery, and murder....
Or what if all those men and women in the Old Testament did exactly the right thing, how would we have all those stories.

Ex: What if God called Jonah, and Jonah said "Go to Nineveh? Sure God, I'll do it"...God says "wait now Jonah, I need you to refuse, so I can have a huge fish swallow you, I need it for this book I'm writing, called "The Bible"... Jonah says "Sorry God no can do, I have a free will, and I've decided to go"... Repeat this 70-100 times, and we have NO BIBLE STORIES...

Then of course we have Romans 9:16
16Everything then depends on God's mercy and not on what people want or do. 17In the Scriptures the Lord says to Pharaoh of Egypt, "I let you become Pharaoh, so that I could show you my power and be praised by all people on earth." 18Everything depends on what God decides to do, and he can either have pity on people or make them stubborn.

Someone may ask, (as we read in Romans 9) "How can God blame us, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?" But, my friend, I ask, "Who do you think you are to question God?

Free will is a false philosophical term and does not exist at all.You are correct:thumbsup::thumbsup: