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Free Will

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by TomMann, Nov 21, 2002.

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  1. TomMann

    TomMann New Member

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    The first temptation to mankind was that they should disobey/disbelieve/reject God's "WORD". That they might partake the fruit of the forbidden tree. That they might be as gods.

    Man's prime desire is and has always been to be as gods, to be the captain of their own fate and master of their own destiny. Believing that we either know as well as God or that we should be able to do it without God.

    Man was assigned a place in the scheme of God. He was told to dress and keep the garden, enjoy the fruit of his labor, to walk with the LORD in the cool of the evening, and, oh yea, there was one don't. Don't partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. How simple life should have been and should still be had he just followed directions.

    But, then again, wouldn't the accepting of and adhering to God's decree's, unquestioned, have made him the equivalent of a mindless robot. That is the position offered by so many. I get tickled to over and over again observe the prayers of many, that God should "direct their every footstep, control their tongue that nothing offensive or improper might be said, to lead, to guide, to direct their every move, and then proclaim they would be mindless robots if he actually did it.

    Attention now....., accepting and living by the decrees of God is the rule, the expectation, the reasonable service, the duty of the creation. We should be surrendered to his will, his dictates, his decrees. Free will is the choice we have all made to walk outside those dictates.

    Now listen carefully, this will be a tough pill for some of you to swallow, "Yes, we all have free will, however, the exercise of that free will is rebellion against God."

    So many proclaim that free will allows them to chose God, to chose life, to chose Jesus. Listen up now, "To chose God, to chose life, to chose Jesus is the command, the rule, the dictate." Free will is is another choice outside of that choice.

    So free will is the downfall of us prodigal sons. The road home is initiated by the opening of the eyes of our understanding. This is a work of God acted upon those He had choosen.

    (1) He gives them to Jesus (the ability to hear his "WORD" with understanding.)
    (2) Jesus (the "WORD") reveals the father to them.
    (3) Born again.

    Humility, brokeness, surrender, and the understanding of our insufficiency are some of the things we encounter on the way home. He is the captain of our fate (faith) and the master of our eternal destiny.

    To those who say that man must have the choice in his salvation, I say, that is what got us into this mess in the first place. That is, our insistance that we have a hand in our creators work. After all we want to be the master of our own fate, huh!!
     
    #1 TomMann, Nov 21, 2002
  2. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I'm not sure I agree 100% with what you're saying, but IMO you've drawn attention to some extremely important points. Here are some that I particularly enjoyed:

    G. Gordon Liddy once worshipped his own iron-clad will only to become a Christian and pray each day that he might submit to God's will in all things. IMO, that is the Spirit talking.

    Is there truly anyone here who would not gladly trade ALL their my fleshly temptations for ONLY the desire to please Him? Fortunately, we have been given this promise -- "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled."

    I wouldn't say that Adam sinned because he wanted a hand in the creator's work, although I suppose one might see it that way. IMO, Adam was able to sin the way he did because he was innocent and had free will. He sinned, however, because he wanted to be a more powerful part of his own destiny.

    Our current condition is different than Adam's. Our will is free to an extent, but we cannot bend our will whichever way we like because we are inclined to sin. So it is our nature to want to be in control of our own destiny, which is evidence of our fallen state. That's why it's a "good thing" when we reach the point where we ask God to take over.
     
    #2 npetreley, Nov 21, 2002
  3. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    The (foolish) quest for absolute autonomy. It still continues.

    I really like, "Father, bend his will so that He comes to You for salvation." Although some might argue with your comment. They might say, "After I've submitted my will to His, He can do anything He wants. I've given Him that right." I'd be interested to hear "Arminian" comments on the prayer I've heard numerous times. I guess it's the "Jimmy Johnson Defense" style of prayer, "Bend but don't break." [​IMG]

    Many will not swallow that pill. They refuse to do so. They choose not to do so. They reject the pill. They will not decide for the pill. [​IMG]

    So, what does the Scripture mean when it states that Jesus is the "Author" AND "Finisher" of our "faith"?

    Rev. G
     
    #3 Rev. G, Nov 21, 2002
  4. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    BTW, you are referencing the poem "Invictus" by
    William Ernest Henley.

    OUT of the night that covers me,
    Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
    I thank whatever gods may be
    For my unconquerable soul.

    In the fell clutch of circumstance
    I have not winced nor cried aloud.
    Under the bludgeonings of chance
    My head is bloody, but unbowed.

    Beyond this place of wrath and tears
    Looms but the Horror of the shade,
    And yet the menace of the years
    Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

    It matters not how strait the gate,
    How charged with punishments the scroll,
    I am the master of my fate:
    I am the captain of my soul.
     
    #4 Rev. G, Nov 21, 2002
  5. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Ah, He just says that because He wants all the credit. Everyone knows we ghost-wrote our salvation with our free will. ;)
     
    #5 npetreley, Nov 21, 2002
  6. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    npetreley:

    You're a mess, man! You crack me up more than everyone else on this board combined. Thanks for the laughs! :D

    Rev. G
     
    #6 Rev. G, Nov 21, 2002
  7. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Like your mom said, don't pay attention to him, you'll only encourage him... ;)

    Thanks. :D
     
    #7 npetreley, Nov 21, 2002
  8. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    More laughter... [​IMG]
     
    #8 Rev. G, Nov 21, 2002
  9. romanbear

    romanbear New Member

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    Hi Tom; [​IMG]
    Your statement below
    ___________________________________________________________________
    To those who say that man must have the choice in his salvation, I say, that is what got us into this mess in the first place. That is, our insistance that we have a hand in our creators work. After all we want to be the master of our own fate, huh!!
    ___________________________________________________________________
    This is the way a lot of people look at.I think they want to be masters of there own fate and we are to a point.In my opinion God is in charge he new the out come from the beginning and could have easily stop man from doing anything he wanted to.In fact He did stop man with the flood and at the tower of Babble.Think about it things were getting out of hand and He put a stop to it. He didn't interfere with Adam's choice because he knew what his actions would bring about.Which is the fulfillment of the Word. All man in my opinion has freewill.God wouldn't have true love from man if man didn't have free will.Otherwise why would God give us the ten commandments if we didn't have a choice.I believe we have to choose to follow Christ.this how ever doesn't make me an Arminian or a Calvinist.Since I am 4 points of one and 1 point of the other.I do believe man is totally lost until he is saved the total depravity part of Calvinism how ever I don't believe you can loose your salvation.The reason for the latter is because I have backslid and should have to go to hell but, Christ came after me to bring me back into the fold.I feel He arranged certain events to bring me to my senses.
    God allows things in all our lives both blessings and correction.He wouldn't be a good Father if he didn't bless and correct us.And we would never really love him if we didn't have freedom to choose.Love [​IMG] is what is all about
    Romanbear
    Peace
     
    #9 romanbear, Nov 26, 2002
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Tom - you have arbitrarily defined "Free Will" as "rebellion against God". While that arbitrary definition might be pleasing to a few Calvinists at times - it is hardly compelling.

    If Sinnless Adam created in the image of God was given free will (as you seem to accept) then by your arbitrary definition - he had to sin - oops that knocks free will out the window!

    Also by your definition - the loyal angels who did not join Lucifer - chose to obey - because they must have "had no free will".

    Basically your argument collapses before it gets started. Try another approach.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ November 26, 2002, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
    #10 BobRyan, Nov 26, 2002
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Adam had a truly free will as he had no sin nature. Man's free will is now corrupted because of his sin nature, therefore his free will is only free to choose within the parameters of his sin nature until God regenerates him and gives him new life in Christ Jesus.

    Adam's free will was fine until he sinned. His free will and ours were corrupted by his sin.

    Ken

    [ November 26, 2002, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
    #11 KenH, Nov 26, 2002
  12. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Tom - you have arbitrarily defined "Free Will" as "rebellion against God". While that arbitrary definition might be pleasing to a few Calvinists at times - it is hardly compelling.</font>[/QUOTE]Notice the difference between what you said and what he said. You misquoted him. He said the exercise of free will was rebellion. He did defined free will as rebellion.

    Definitionally speaking, free will is the ability to act in accordance with one's nature. It is a fundamental part of human nature. It is not the ability to contradict or counteract one's nature.

    Not to speak for him, but for the rest of it, Adam had a sinless nature; therefore he could "not sin." Once he sinned, he had a sin nature and could not "not sin." All of his descendants also have a sin nature and therefore cannot "not sin."

    I think it only collasped becuase you misunderstood what he said and misunderstand what free will is.
     
    #12 Pastor Larry, Nov 26, 2002
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