"Free willers teach false doctrine".

One reason I believe we argue so much about these things is that each side has different views of what the other believes. Maybe this can help us to get our definitions straight. To that end, I think this will be an excellent thread. Here is how I see it....

The term "free-will" implies no outside influence on our decision making ability, either pro or con. It assumes we see good and evil exactly for what it is, and that God has given us the ability to choose the good over the evil, if we are so inclined. That includes "choosing" to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.

There are so many verses of scripture that contradict these ideas that I couldn't even begin to post them all. Jesus said those who sin are slaves to sin. The slave does the will of his master, not his own will. Paul says the same thing in Romans 6-7. There are many others that point to God working in the lives of those who will believe; drawing, revealing, convicting, according to the will of God, not the will of man.

The one I will go into detail about, however, is Genesis 3:1-7. It is clear from these verses Adam and Eve did not know good and evil before they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Eve's human will was manipulated by Satan.

Eve was deceived. The deception was that, if she ate of the tree, she would become "like God", knowing good and evil. Here we find, in the very first lie of Satan, the concept of "free-will" that is so often put forth by those who support it. That we can choose good over evil according to our own will, and be like God when doing it. It was a lie then, and it is a lie now.

I know those who support "free-will" are likely to be offended by what I just said. I apologize in advance for being too candid. Please to not take it personally. I can think of no other way to say it.

peace to youraying:

 

It is false to say anyone I know thinks they will be like God by choosing that Jesus is His Son. He made the creature subject to vanity which is made good but subject to evil, not willingly but by reason of Him (God) who subjected the same in Hope (Jesus).

So, He made him able to choose good or evil.

God in His Sovereignty made us that way and not one can take it away from Him for He is God and He is Sovereign.

 

They didn't know good and evil until after the fall, according to scripture anyway. There was nothing to choose from. "Good" had no meaning. "Evil" had no meaning. Satan deceived Eve.

If you believe Adam and Eve had "free-will" before the fall, was that "free-will" effected by the fall. If so, in what way? Or do you believe Adam and Eve had the same ability to choose good and evil after the fall, as before the fall? If that is the case, then sin does not effect our ability choose in any way.

peace to youraying:

 

No.

I think good and evil existed before Adam and Eve.

Sin (and evil) began in heaven when Satan and 1/3 of
the angels rebelled.

Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil until
it was too late. Education is expensive.

 

I said they were subject to it. (if it came along of which it did)

 

Subject to what?

peace to youraying:

 

to vanity........... evil

 

Scripture demostrates they were subject to being deceived by Satan. Nothing about being subject to vanity before the fall. Nothing about knowing evil before the fall.

peace to youraying:

 

Romans 8:

20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

Come on, BBob. We are talking prior to the fall, and after the fall. They were not subject to vanity until after the fall, until after sin came to the whole race because of the transgression (Romans 5) The creation did not "groan" until after the fall. You know this.

peace to youraying:

 

All I have to go on is the word and the word says they were MADE subject to vanity.
If it were not true, then how did Adam and Eve disobey God?

 

Eve was deceived. That is what scripture says. And the deception was she could use her own human will to know good and evil, and be like God when she did it.

peace to youraying:

 

Yes and if God had of chose to, he could of made Eve not subject to vanity and she couldn't of been deceived.

 

Yes, and if God wanted Moses to tell us Eve was subject to vanity, and that was the cause of her deception, He would have had him put it in the text; but God didn't do that. The text says Eve was deceived. Nothing about vanity in the text. God didn't put it there. Moses didn't put it there. You shouldn't see it there.

peace to youraying:

 

Sorry Sir;
But you sure know it now.

 

I had forgotten why I avoid posting with you BBob. Thanks for reminding me.

peace to youraying:

 

canadyjd;
Please tell me what you mean by that, I am at a loss. I have tried to be as much of a gentleman as I know how. I suppose you mean by that you don't want to post with me, but at least tell me why. I meant nothing except to say that not only you know, but so do I.
They were God's chosen people back then under the Law and their Salvation was by works. So, God Bless and forgive.

I will now give your thread back. Sorry to have bothered you.

 

Forgive me. I allowed myself to get a little annoyed.

I find your arguments hard to follow. I get frustrated that you seem to ignore points that others make, or questions they ask you, and instead respond with something that seems out of context.

Case in point. I don't believe anyone was saved by works, ever. Not the people of Israel. Certainly not Adam and Eve. I fail to see how that is relevant to what we were discussing.

peace to youraying: