Freedom/Foreknowledge and Ockham's way out

Can you demonstrate that God hold's any beliefs at all?

The God I worship is not in need of beliefs, because God knows all there is, thus negating belief.

"Beliefs" and "believing" are not attributes of the divine. God knows it, or it does not exist.

 

Brandon, you have not shown how it is that God predetermines all events that come to pass, especially sinful actions of humans.

I am aware of the reference often made by Calvinists to Acts 4:28, "to do whatever thy hand and thy council determined before to be done". It is assumed from this, that, because the crucifixion of Jesus, which indeed was a very sinful act, is said to have been "determined" by God, that this shows that God "caused" this event to take place. This assumption is wrong. The word "determined" is from the Greek "proorizo", which literally means, "to mark out before hand", or "to decide before". Sure, the course of action that God would take in the Redemption of mankind, was no doubt something that God did "decide" upon before the foundation of the world. But, just because God has something in His plan that invloves the sinful actions of man, cannot be taken to mean that He is the cause of their actions. God used the crucifixion at the hands of these evil men to carry out His plans, as a means to accomplish His end. This in no way shows that God in any way was the cause of these sinful actions. These acts were carried out of the free will of those who did them, and they,and they alone are responsible for them.

A good example can be found in 1 King's, where the Lord says:

"who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead? So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. The Lord said to him, in what way? So he said, I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, you shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so" (22:20-22)

It is very clear from this account, that the Lord uses this lying spirit to accomplish His will. But, on no account does the Lord cause the sin, but simply uses it for His own purpose.

Again, in 2 Samuel we read, "the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, go number Israel and Judah" (24:1). We read in verse ten, that this act of David was a sin, and not something that God desired him to do, and so punishes David for this. This looks like an open and shut case for the Calvinistic doctrine that God is the "cause" of our sins. However, we read in 1 Chronicles 21.1, "and Satan stood up against Israel and provoked David to number Israel" Here we have it. God uses Satan to stir up David to number Israel, though He did not actually do so Himself. Because God "allowed" Satan to do this, as He did in Job, it can be said that He "moved" David. Here we have the "means" that He used to accomplish his act. Very carefully the two passages show that it was Satan, and not God who provoked David to sin.

I would like Scripture to show where God actually does "cause" us to sin against us. I am NOT interested in theology, but Scripture.

 

Hello icthus.

2SA 16:11 David then said to Abishai and all his officials, "My son, who is of my own flesh, is trying to take my life. How much more, then, this Benjamite! Leave him alone; let him curse, for the LORD has told him to.
That's one.

Why did you stop at 1 Kings 22:20-22? 1KI 22:23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
Who put the lying spirits in the mouths of the prophets?
That's two.

Your reading of Samuel just shows the agent God used to entice David. This type of enticement did not get Job. Job knew it was God that was behind the things happening to Him though.

john.

 

God will put it in the hearts of these to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast. These men were not forced against their will.

Revelation 17:17 (KJV) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

They act according to their will, i.e., none righteous, none that understandeth, none that seeketh after God, all gone out of the way, unprofitable, none that doeth good, no, not one, their throat is an open sepulchre, they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips, mouth is full of cursing and bitterness, feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their ways, the way of peace have they not known, no fear of God before their eyes, when they see Jesus there is no beauty that we should desire Him, Jesus is despised and rejected of men - Isa 53:2-3; Rom 3:10-18

For those to be saved, a new heart is given, and so they are made willing to come to Christ.

John 3:7 (KJV) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

Romans 9:21 (KJV) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

2SA 16:11 David then said to Abishai and all his officials, "My son, who is of my own flesh, is trying to take my life. How much more, then, this Benjamite! Leave him alone; let him curse, for the LORD has told him to.
That's one.

Why did you stop at 1 Kings 22:20-22? 1KI 22:23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
Who put the lying spirits in the mouths of the prophets?
That's two.

Your reading of Samuel just shows the agent God used to entice David. This type of enticement did not get Job. Job knew it was God that was behind the things happening to Him though.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]John, you continue to make God the author of sin by your misuse of the Scriptures. God uses whom He will to carry out His acts, but NEVER does He cause us to sin, as Calvinism teaches.

 

Bob, what is the point from your two posts here? What you say does not mean that God "preordains" sin. No Scripture ever says that He does, even though this is Calcinistic dogma.

 

You didn't answer my question, "Can you demonstrate that God hold's any beliefs at all?"

Why then should I answer yours?

 

Brandon C. Jones,
You argue with the wind.

I criticize your idea that God has beliefs. I Asked you to subtantiate that statement.

Whoever has knowledge needs no belief in what he has knowledge of. Is there anything that God does not know? Is there anything then that God needs to believe?

 

Hello Brandon:

Good topic. I have always found this to be challenging and have tended to argue that Brandon must indeed make the drive from Chicago to Kansas City on June 17th 2005. Therefore, we cannot say that Brandon has free will - his life is inexorably driven (no pun intended) down a path that puts him in a car on the road to KC on 17 June 2005.

I have always felt that those who argue otherwise are not able to deal with the "global" implications of God's foreknowledge. Instead they are sold on the admittedly pleasing intuition that God can passively view the complete timeline of Brandon's life without ever interfering with his free choice.

I had not heard the truthmaker argument till you brought it up and my initial feeling is that this is an important way to conceive of the problem which had hitherto escaped my consideration (I have not read anything on this subject so my thoughts, for good or bad, are mine alone).

I am still troubled though. I would make the following type of argument.

1. God exists and can be meaningfully said to exist on May 15, 2005 (the date of this post).

2. God is omniscient (in the common sense meaning of the word)

3. If the future is a possible object of knowledge (see the end of my post for another possibility in this regard), then God knows everything about what Brandon will do on 17 June, 2005.

4. On 15 May, God therefore holds knowledge about events on 17 June involving Brandon. Since it could reasonably be argued that Brandon has not even thought about what he will do in June, the "truthmaker" does not really exist on 15 May.

5. Brandon is therefore robbed of free will and has no choice but to drive to KC.

What I am trying to say is that a "snapshot" of our Universe taken on 15 May includes the fact of God knowing that Brandon will drive to KC on 17 June. In order to avoid inconsistency, this knowledge must be converted into a factual reality as time unfolds.

What if we try to solve this problem by saying that the future is not a thing about which God can have knwowledge? This sounds obviously non-biblical. However, the future is a funny kind of beast. We assume that there is "a" future, but is this necessarily true? Could we not say that God "makes plans" about what He will do and always follows through on those plans, but that He does not really know the future as we common-sensically think that He does?

 

That is why free will is negated. It is because the future has not happened but God brings His will into play and directs the steps of man. You will drive the car because God's plan involved you driving the car.
You cannot be robbed of free will if free will does not exist. It would be like saying we was robbed of telepathy because we can't read minds.

The future does not exist as a reality. God knows what He wants it to become. So He knows what it will become because He knows that He will bring it to pass. That is God's foreknowledge. He cannot see the future because it has not happened yet but He knows what it will be like because He will drive the present there.
If God's foreknows His own actions, how is that different? The future knowledge of a thing to be is part of His plan so He is not reacting but causing. If you knew the future you would react and end up at the Hobby Lobby. You did not end up there because God foresaw you ending up there so caused you to end up there but He caused you to end up there because it is part of His plan.

Not his life only but the whole of history was shaped to bring this one event about.

Hello icthus.
Why did you stop at 1 Kings 22:20-22? 1KI 22:23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
Who put the lying spirits in the mouths of the prophets?

That was two questions you did not answer with scripture but with your opinion. Please answer the questions with scripture.

Why did you stop at 1 Kings 22:20-22 and not include 1KI 22:23?
Who put the lying spirits in the mouths of the prophets?

john.

 

Hi John, If you read my response, you will see what the meaning of verse 23 is. As I showed from the account of David numbering Israel, where the account in 2 Samuel 24 says that "the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, go, number Israel and Judah". However, in 1 Chronicles 21, we are told how it is that God did this. He used Satan, where it says, "and Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel"

Though it says that God moved David to number Israel in the account in Samuel, yet we learn from the one in Chronicles how God did this. He used Satan, since He Himself cannot tempt anyone to sin. It is clear from both accounts, that what David did was sinful in God's eyes, and God punished Israel for this. Are you saying, that God caused David to sin, and then punished him for it? This is an impossibility, for God cannot be tempted to sin, nor can He tempt anyone to sin. This is an impossibility with the nature of God. If God did compel David to sin, then we have serious problems with the Holiness of God.

A another example can be found in the treatment of Jesus at the hands of Pilate. We read in the Goepel accounts, that "when he had scourged Jesus" (Matthew 27:26). Although it says that Pliate "scourged Jesus", yet he would have not have done this himself, but handed Jesus over to the Roman soldiers who would have beaten Him.