From the no man can come unto me thread

[Winman]

What about all the people that go to hell? Didn't God create them? No matter what side we're on, it is indisputable that people (God's creation) are punished eternally in hell. Why did God create them knowing full well they would end up in hell?

God created them with free will so that they could either willingly love him, or willingly reject and hate him.

Would you want it any other way? Would you want someone to love you because they were forced to love you, or would you rather they loved you because they sincerely desired to love you?

I don't want a slave, I want someone who sincerely wants me. God is the same. God has warned all men of the consequences of sin, which is death and destruction. It is no different than when we warn our kids not to take drugs, or to drive too fast. We are trying to help them, but we must also trust them to make their own decisions. I could lock my children in a room where they could never sin, but I don't think they would appreciate that very much, in fact, I think they would HATE me if I did that.

God gave men free will so they could love him (there can be no love without choice), but this same free will allows them to sin if that is what they desire. The wages of sin is death, they bring it upon themselves for their own free will decisions to sin. Yet, God pleads with all men to be reconciled to him. He has shown the greatest love possible, giving his own Son to die for us to save us.

I don't think that comment was necessary.

There is no nice way to say it Amy. I do not believe in a God who would destroy his own creation for his own glory and pleasure. Any man who did such a thing would be considered a monster, even by you.

 

[OldRegular]

And how does the unregenerate, unbeliever "know" Christ? How can he trust someone he doesn't know?


Faith in Christ is not rational. Believing God manifested Himself in a human body is not rational. Believing He rose from the dead is not rational. It doesn't fit with the physical laws of nature and therefore the natural man cannot understand it nor believe it.
The gospel is 100% spiritual and can only be believed through the spirit of man. But man's spirit is dead and incapable of grasping spiritual things. Therefore, God must open his eyes, or regenerate him in order for him to "see" Christ for who He IS.


You trust the scripture because you have the Spirit of God in you. You are spiritually discerning God's word. The unsaved do not trust the scriptures nor do they understand them or even want to understand. To them it is foolishness.


That isn't faith. That's experience. Can an animal place it's faith in Christ?

Amy G.

All the above points are very well made and pertinent. I have often thought that what God did for us in Jesus Christ is beyond belief. But I do believe and I can only thank God for that!:godisgood:

I said you were good Amy G.

 

[Amy.G]

Would you want it any other way? Would you want someone to love you because they were forced to love you, or would you rather they loved you because they sincerely desired to love you?

God doesn't force us to love Him. But you can't love a God that you don't know. As an unbeliever, I did not know God. I only knew about Him. There is a huge difference. I know about Billy Graham, but I don't know Him personally. You can only know God personally through the spirit. My spirit to His Spirit. Using your trust analogy, we can only trust God if we know Him, just knowing about Him is not enough.

There is no nice way to say it Amy. I do not believe in a God who would destroy his own creation for his own glory and pleasure. Any man who did such a thing would be considered a monster, even by you.

Well your God does destroy His own creation, unless you believe no one goes to hell.

 

[OldRegular]

Maybe this is how you conceive God, but it is not how I conceive God. My God loves all his creation and wants every man to be saved. He loved all men so much he offered his own Son to die for their sins to save them.

So, we do not believe in the same God at all.

I have heard for years the statement: My God would not do this or My God would not do that! Where do we get the right to make such statements.

God created man with "free will"! What did man do? He rebelled against God. Adam and Eve were the only people, other than the man Jesus Christ, who were born with a "free will". All others were and are born with a will bent toward sin and sin they will. The Biblical record shows that and secular history shows that.

Isaiah had it right and I am going to present that Scripture here because it is pertinent:

Isaiah 44:13-20
13. The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house.
14. He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it.
15. Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.
16. He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:
17. And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.
18. They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
19. And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?
20. He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

Fallen man may not whittle his gods out of firewood any more but they are there unless God redeems him!

 

[Winman]

God doesn't force us to love Him. But you can't love a God that you don't know. As an unbeliever, I did not know God. I only knew about Him. There is a huge difference. I know about Billy Graham, but I don't know Him personally. You can only know God personally through the spirit. My spirit to His Spirit. Using your trust analogy, we can only trust God if we know Him, just knowing about Him is not enough.

I actually agree with this Amy. When I heard the gospel, I was greatly convicted. I knew I had sinned many times, and I was just a boy. I would laugh now at the sins I had committed then, they were nothing compared to the sins I have committed many years later as an adult. Nevertheless, I knew God was good and that I had sinned against him.

At the same time I heard that God loved me and gave his Son Jesus to die for me. This spoke to me personally. It is not so much his death that affected me, it was that a HOLY person like Jesus would take my filthy sins upon himself. That is a lot to ask, especially of a HOLY God who has never sinned. I was touched to the heart by his love for me, even though I was a sinner. So, I prayed to Jesus and asked him to forgive me and come into my heart. That is when I began to know him.

Well your God does destroy His own creation, unless you believe no one goes to hell.

God is HOLY. He cannot look upon sin, it must be put away from him. It is not his desire to destroy sinners, he takes no pleasure in it at all. But God is JUST, sin MUST be paid for. A person can trust in Jesus and have his sins paid for by Jesus, or he can trust in himself and pay for his own sins. These are the only two options possible, but sin MUST be paid for.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, as probably no human judge takes pleasure in sentencing a man to death or to many years in prison. But the law has been broken and the law must be kept, otherwise he would be a corrupt and unjust judge.

God calls all men to Jesus, he wants all to be saved, but men have their own free will and make their own decisions. I am sure there are many men in hell who heard the gospel from their preacher, or their friends and family. They could have chosen to trust Jesus, but they chose not to. Now they must pay for that decision. I am sure they regret that decision.

 

[percho]

Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God.

The kingdom of God follows this current age.

Matt 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'
V14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Is it about dying and going to heaven or going to hell?
Is it about being born as a spirit being in the kingdom of God? Abraham, Issac and Jacob will be in the kingdom of God. When and how will they be born into the kingdom of God?

The "saved," shall be saved to reign with Christ in the kingdom of God at his appearing. They are the ones being called out of this world as a people for his, God's name. It is they that have the firstfruits of the spirit. R8:23
To put first before a word means there will be seconds or others that will receive the spirit later who are not being given it now. That is called election.
I don't think you will find in the word anyone who is elected to go to hell.

There is a spring harvest and there will be a fall harvest.

The feasts of the LORD are about the salvation of mankind.

The firstfruits are being called out of a Satan deceived world οἰκουμένην the inhabited earth. Hebrews 2:5 makes an awesome statement; For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
That is the same world οἰκουμένην in Rev. 12:9
That tells me this present inhabited earth is in subjection to the Devil and his angels.

freeatlast said the deception of Satan has nothing to do with free will. I say there can be no free will as long as Satan is allowed to deceive the nations.

That will be one of the next big things Jesus will do upon his return and earns a spot as the fifth feast of God holy convocation sabbath day. Read about it in Lev. 16 and Rev 20:1-3