Fun with baptism

[ktn4eg]

It's been a good 35 or so years ago, but I still remember listening to a tape of an old Baptist preacher repeating the lines of the first stanza of the Churches of Christ's national anthem:

"There is a Fountain filled with water,
Drawn from the city's mains.
And sinners plunged beneath that flood...."

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Well, the temptation of several beckoning baptism threads was nearly overwhelming, but this one finally pushed me over and compelled me to respond. Bmerr, I will play your game, and I will play it with almost no creativity. Nearly all of the items in the list below are misquotations and alterations that I have personally heard a Church of Christ preacher (the preacher in my former home church) make.

If I wanted to make Scripture say baptism were essential for salvation:

• I would alter the Great Commission in Matthew to read: "Make disciples of all nations by baptizing them..."
• I would remove the second half of Mark 16:16 (while we're at it, I might remove verse 17, lest people think that those pesky Charismatic gifts would actually follow believers).
• I would alter John 3:5 to actually refer to baptism.
• I would add an addendum to Acts 3:19 that "being converted" involves baptism
• I would alter Acts 10 to have the Holy Spirit indwell Cornelius and family after baptism.
• I would alter Acts 16:31 to include baptism.
• I would alter Acts 22:16 to read: "Arise, and be baptized TO wash away your sins..."
• I would alter Galatians 3:21 to read: "We clothe ourselves with Christ in baptism," although I'm not sure what good that would do, as Romans 13:14 left me with the impression that clothing oneself with Christ is something to be done by those already saved. Maybe instead I would simply remove Romans 13:14 so that the preacher could interpret Galatians 3:27 to be talking about salvation in baptism.
• I would alter Ephesians 2:8 to say, "You are saved by grace, through faith, in baptism."
• I would alter I Peter 3:21 to only include "baptism now saves you," with none of Peter's explanation of what he meant.

That's a good place to start, although there are many more examples I could cite. Perhaps now you understand why I left the Church of Christ, after having sat for years under a preacher who, instead of preaching the Bible, preached what he really wished the Bible said.

Michael

 

[Snitzelhoff]

I realized this morning that it wouldn't be fair to post only what the Bible should say were baptism actually essential without also posting what the Bible actually does say about baptism (since we all advocate going on what the Scriptures say about a subject and all). Let's take a brief look.

• Baptism is to be undergone by disciples (Matthew 28:19).
• Baptism is to be undergone by those who have received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47), which is the proof of salvation (Romans 8:9).
• Baptism is an act that's part of clothing oneself with Christ (Galatians 3:27), which is something done by people already saved (Romans 13:14)
• Baptism does NOT put away the filth of the flesh (I Peter 3:21).

I would say that the Scriptures are abundantly clear that baptism is an act that follows salvation, and not an act that effects it. A good deal would have to be altered to make them say otherwise.

Michael

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Did I kill the thread?

 

[Marcia]

Marcia,

bmerr here. Since you're not going along with this in any way, can you produce a verse that speaks of baptism that tells us that it's something we do after we are saved?

Genesis12, Darron Steele, and Snitzelhoff all answered this very well.

As for the "formula," my mistake. I was thinking of something else. I apologize.

Snitzelhoff said:
Did I kill the thread?

I hope so! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[God's Word is TRUTH]

I have a question. does anyone here believe that you can be saved, and not be a member of Christ's body(the Church)?

In Christian Love,

Dustin

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Dustin, I, for one, don't believe you can be saved and not be a part of the Body of Christ. I Corinthians 12:13 says that we were all baptized by one Spirit into one Body, and I have a hard time imagining who "we all" is if it's not all Christians.

Oh, that's another one to add to this intensely fun game of Bmerr's: I would alter I Corinthians 12:13 to include water.

Michael

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Bmerr, you didn't want to stick around to play your game with me?

Dustin, where were you taking your question?

 

[mman]

I realized this morning that it wouldn't be fair to post only what the Bible should say were baptism actually essential without also posting what the Bible actually does say about baptism (since we all advocate going on what the Scriptures say about a subject and all). Let's take a brief look.

• Baptism is to be undergone by disciples (Matthew 28:19).
• Baptism is to be undergone by those who have received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47), which is the proof of salvation (Romans 8:9).
• Baptism is an act that's part of clothing oneself with Christ (Galatians 3:27), which is something done by people already saved (Romans 13:14)
• Baptism does NOT put away the filth of the flesh (I Peter 3:21).

I would say that the Scriptures are abundantly clear that baptism is an act that follows salvation, and not an act that effects it. A good deal would have to be altered to make them say otherwise.

Michael

Let's look at what you've stated in more detail and you will find that never once does baptism follow salvation. Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be condemned". Here, believe and baptism precede salvation while disbelief precedes condemnation. Disbelief alone is enough to condemn (Jn 3:18). Not being baptized will not add to that condemnation.

OK, now on to your points:

Baptism is to be undergone by disciples (Matthew 28:19).

That is so true. No arguments here. A disciple is simply a follower or learner. Certainly you could not baptize one who did not want to follow Jesus. However, all followers of Jesus are not saved. Matt 7:21 plainly shows us that MANY followers of Jesus, who call Him Lord, are actually not known by Him.

Baptism is to be undergone by those who have received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47), which is the proof of salvation (Romans 8:9).

If this is true, then it is true in every case, would you agree? Let's look at some more examples.

1) Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Had they already received the Holy Spirit? NO, that had not! Then why were they baptized in water since they had no "proof" of their salvation?

Let's read a couple of verses later, "Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." (vs 14-16)

Here it is evident that they had not received the Holy Spirit until after they were baptized in water. To recap the order, they heard the word, believed it, were baptized in water, then received the Holy Spirit.

Their reception of the Holy Spirit was visible because Simon "saw" (vs18)something going on and wanted to buy that power. The impartation of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 was also visible. It had nothing to do with salvation in Acts 8 so why do you want it to in Acts 10? In fact, Acts 11 tells us that the Holy Spirit fell on them as they "began" to speak. You can't believe a message before you hear it. In fact, Peter was to tell him words whereby he could be saved (vs 14-15). Therefore since the Holy Spirit fell on them as they began to speak, it could not have been indicative of their salvation since they had not even heard the words by which they would be saved. After Peter spoke those words, Cornelius was baptized in water.

Furthermore, in Acts 8, Philip was called away by the Spirit to go preach to a man of Ethiopia. The Spirit must have known that Philip was capable of performing the task. Philip spoke the word of the Lord to him and the next question the Eunuch was asking is "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?"

Philips reply was if you believe you may. Therefore, belief is a prerequisite for baptism, which agrees with Jesus' words in Mark 16:16, not the reception of the Holy Spirit. In fact, we've already seen that Philip can not pass along the Holy Spirit as one of the Apostles, yet the Spirit still told Philip to go meet with the Eunuch.

Here is one more definitive example from Acts 19:1-6, "And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism." And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying."

If the Holy Spirit comes when a person believes, then Paul must have been one ignorant inspired Apostle because he asked, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" He knew they had been baptized because he asked, "Into what then were you baptized?". Notice he did not ask "If" they had been baptized. Paul is asking believers if they had received the Holy Spirit.

Could you speak in foreign languages that you had not learned as a result of someone starting to speak to you about Jesus for the first time? Then that outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit is not the rule, but the exception found only in Acts 10. Every other example shows this to be the exception.

Baptism is an act that's part of clothing oneself with Christ (Galatians 3:27), which is something done by people already saved (Romans 13:14)

Let's read the passages, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27

Notice the phases "in Christ" and "into Christ". You may walk "in a room" only after you have walked "into the room".

Notice, "In Christ" we are sons of God through faith
Because we have been baptized "INTO Christ".

When we are baptized INTO Christ and then we put on Christ. We cannot put on Christ before we are even in Christ.

Again, notice the same number of people that have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. If Christ were not put on in baptism, then that would not be true. The statement would have to read, "Some of you that have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.".

Let's read the context of Romans 13, "Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires."

Paul is making a contrast of works of darkness verses walking in the light, works of the flesh verses having put on Christ. If you say that a person puts on Christ after becoming a Christian, then you are saying they are walking in darkness and according to the works of the flesh after becoming a Christian and then they put on Christ. No, a Christian has already put on Christ in baptism and Paul is telling them to walk as children of light and not as children of darkness.

Baptism does NOT put away the filth of the flesh (I Peter 3:21).

Again, lets read it in context. I Pet 3:20-21, "...when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

First, this passage clearly states that baptism saves you from something. What does baptism save you from?

No, it doesn't wash sins away like it would wash dirt away. That would make the power in the water. The power is not in the water, but the blood. We are baptized because God said so. If God can resurrect Jesus from the dead, he can, by that same power, resurrect me from the watery grave of baptism to walk in a NEW life, and I can have a good conscience because I have trusted God.

How did Paul state it in Rom 6? "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." (vs 3-4).

Notice again the theme of Jesus' resurrection. When does the new life begin? Before or after baptism?

How does one get into Christ? Again, here it states through baptism.

How does one come in contact with the death of Jesus' where his cleansing blood flowed? Again, it is in baptism.

It is clearly no wonder that water and blood flowed from the Savior's side at his death.

John 19:34, "one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water."

 

[mman]

Dustin, I, for one, don't believe you can be saved and not be a part of the Body of Christ. I Corinthians 12:13 says that we were all baptized by one Spirit into one Body, and I have a hard time imagining who "we all" is if it's not all Christians.

Oh, that's another one to add to this intensely fun game of Bmerr's: I would alter I Corinthians 12:13 to include water.

Michael

Baptism put one INTO Christ (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27). There is no other way found in scriputure to get INTO Christ. One cannot be in the body of Christ while still "outside" of Christ.

I Cor 12:13 does state, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit".

When compared with the real example given in Acts 2, we can clearly see how this is done.

After they had heard the gospel and believed it, they asked what they needed to do. We are all familiar with Peter's answer in verse 38. But actually it was not Peter's instruction it was the Holy Spirit speaking through Peter (Acts 2:4).

So, we have the Spirit, as it were, instructing men to repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins.

Verse 41 states, "Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Those who believed and were baptized were "added"? Added to what? Verse 47 tells us, "praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved."

Oh, we have those who believe the gospel and by instructions given by the Holy Spirit are baptized and added to the Church. That sounds the same as "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body".

 

[Eric B]

Paul is making a contrast of works of darkness verses walking in the light, works of the flesh verses having put on Christ. If you say that a person puts on Christ after becoming a Christian, then you are saying they are walking in darkness and according to the works of the flesh after becoming a Christian and then they put on Christ. No, a Christian has already put on Christ in baptism and Paul is telling them to walk as children of light and not as children of darkness.

Your view faces the same problem when a person believes, and is not yet baptized.

First, this passage clearly states that baptism saves you from something. What does baptism save you from?

No, it doesn't wash sins away like it would wash dirt away. That would make the power in the water. The power is not in the water, but the blood. We are baptized because God said so. If God can resurrect Jesus from the dead, he can, by that same power, resurrect me from the watery grave of baptism to walk in a NEW life, and I can have a good conscience because I have trusted God.

So baptism only saves because it is a sort of "busy work" task God gives us to "test our faith", right? Well, you know what, even then, as in all your OT examples, the salvation would still not be in the physical item (the water) but in the faith. The faith would still not be coterminous with the act, as you make it out to be, but simply the act is a symbolic "figure" to demonstrate faith. So even then, a person who was willing to be baptized but died first should be saved, (as the Catholics will admit with their "baptism of desire"/"blood"), but you could never bring yourself to admit that. To you, it is an entirely mechanical transaction centered on the water and nothing but the water.
(we are not "resurrected" from WATER, but from spiritual DEATH. It is all spiritual, and you make it all mechanical).

I Cor 12:13 does state, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit".

When compared with the real example given in Acts 2, we can clearly see how this is done.

After they had heard the gospel and believed it, they asked what they needed to do. We are all familiar with Peter's answer in verse 38. But actually it was not Peter's instruction it was the Holy Spirit speaking through Peter (Acts 2:4).

So, we have the Spirit, as it were, instructing men to repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins.

Verse 41 states, "Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Those who believed and were baptized were "added"? Added to what? Verse 47 tells us, "praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved."

Oh, we have those who believe the gospel and by instructions given by the Holy Spirit are baptized and added to the Church. That sounds the same as "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body".

Now I've seen everything! Since you have always glossed over this passage with the "that would be two baptisms" charge, when given to you in the past, and I had never heard this argument before, you must have just thought it up, or read it from somewere after looking for an answer compatible with your doctrine. And you're the one always accusing someone else of "mental gymnastics?! (Simply pairing it up with one of your more familiar proof-texts that you have already read your own meaning into in isolation of the rest of scripture such as this).

The verse clearly is saying thet the Holy Spirit is the one doing the "baptizing", and that it is INTO "the body". You finish off trying to instruct us "added to what" (the church) from v.41, but this is what we have been telling you all along, as you are the one insisting the only baptism today is a physical baptism "BY MAN" into a pool of water! "REJECT the others" you said last week, remember?
So now, you are tying to say that the Spirit baptizes you by instructing you to let a man baptize you into water. You have changed your tune around, and it is a desperate argument. Just accept that the baptism that saves is the spiritual baptism into the body, and the water ceremony is just a symbol of it! That is much simpler than all of this you have concocted!

 

[bmerr]

And, in his sermon at Pentecost, Peter told the folks there to be baptized "to wash away their sins."

What are we to make of this?

1 Corinthians 1:17, 15:1-4, Acts 8:36-39, Matthew 28:19, Romans 6:4, John 3:16-18, Romans 1:16, John 11:25-26, Acts 4:12, Acts 16:30-31, taken in context, carefully read, indicate that it is upon believing the Good News that one is to be baptized - having already believed.

gen12,

bmerr here. My apologies for the late response. Spare time has been very limited lately.

The neccessity of belief prior to baptism has never been denied. After all, why would a non-believer submit to baptism?

We do not become saved by believing in Jesus Christ plus something else! Look at what Paul says in Acts 15:24, Galatians 1:8-9, 1 Corinthians 1:14-16. It was through his preaching, not water baptism, that they were saved. "He that believes .... and is baptized .... shall be saved." Which came first? Belief! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved!

Acts 15:24 denies the neccessity of keeping the Mosaic Law and being circumcised. This letter which was sent to the Gentiles does not even address the subject of baptism, for the people who received it had already been baptized.

1 Cor 1:14-16 does not say that the Corinthians had not been baptized, but that Paul had not personally baptized many of them. Verse 15 even gives the specific reason why Paul was glad he had not baptized many of the Corinthians, "Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name." He wasn't glad that they had not been baptized, for they all had. This oft-misused passage of Scripture does not deny the importance of baptism. If anything, it emphasizes the importance of proper understanding by the one baptized about Whose name he is bringing himself under authority to.

Gal 1:8-9 would be something you might take heed to.

And Acts 16:31 is (from the Scriptural evidence), the first time the jailer had ever heard the name of Jesus Christ. What was he to believe about Jesus, having not heard the word of the Lord? Keep reading!

1 Corinthians 1:21, John 3:15-18, John 3:36, John 3:40, John 5:24, John 6:47, John 11:25-26, John 20:30-31; Acts 10:43, Acts 13:38, Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16, Romans 3:38, Romans 4:24, Romans 5:1, Romans 10:8-13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

For the sake of time, let's just look at 1 Cor 1:21.

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

What separates those who believe gospel preaching from those who do not? Is it not their response to the preaching? How were the people who heard the apostles preach commanded to respond? Were they to pray right where they were and ask God to save them? Were they to come forward and say the sinner's prayer with a counselor? What were they told to do?

Once in my car I turn the key to ignite the fuel. I don't have to press on the accelerator. It always starts just fine without doing that. Turn the key, car starts. Believe, saved. What about those who do have to press on the accelerator? It's a mechanical problem, not the fault of the original design. To achieve the original design, correct the problem. Don't decide that all cars have to be started that way. Go to the manual.

Is it the key turning that starts the car? Or is turning the key what sets in motion the power from the battery, which energizes the starter motor, which causes the bendix to engage the flywheel, etc, etc?

Belief in the gospel message is what motivates one to repent of his sins, confess Christ as the Son of God, and be baptized for the remission of his sins, where his sins are washed away, he puts on Christ, is saved, is added to the church.

In 1 Peter 3:21 he says the like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us. Figuratively speaking, not literally, symbolically buried with Christ in baptism.

Right, we are figuratively buried with Christ when we are baptized. This baptism in water is the antetype, or "like figure", of the flood, in which few, that is eight souls, were saved by water. Baptism is not to wash filth from the flesh, but to appeal to God for a good conscience. Sin is not the filth of the flesh. Sin is the filth of the conscience.

John 3:5 speaks to the water of natural birth, followed by being born again at some point by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus uses Nicodemus' question in John 3:4, focuses it in 3:5, and nails it in 3:6. One who is born of woman must be born again in order to inherit God's promises.

What of those not born of a woman?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Eric B]

Everyone is born of a woman. Even if they had to be C-sectioned out, they were still formed inside the mother, and in the "water" inside. I don't think any of us were from pods, or animals, or space or something. The unusual interruption of birth is not somethign that would prevent such an expression from being used.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Eric B,

"The verse clearly is saying thet the Holy Spirit is the one doing the "baptizing", and that it is INTO "the body". You finish off trying to instruct us "added to what" (the church) from v.41, but this is what we have been telling you all along, as you are the one insisting the only baptism today is a physical baptism "BY MAN" into a pool of water! "REJECT the others" you said last week, remember?
So now, you are tying to say that the Spirit baptizes you by instructing you to let a man baptize you into water. You have changed your tune around, and it is a desperate argument. Just accept that the baptism that saves is the spiritual baptism into the body, and the water ceremony is just a symbol of it!"

I am with you here, EricB!
But just look at your last phrase quoted again? Just accept that the baptism that saves is the spiritual baptism into the body, and the water ceremony is just of no consequence, and in fact contra-productive. The 'spiritual baptism', 'saves'. It is all God requires, and it is everything Christ gives.
I maintain 'water baptism' was a sign od Apostolic Authority - it is presumptuous of any later generation to assume it for itself.

John told us what and how the baptism of and by Jesus would be - water would play no role, have no part, and with it man's doings.

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Mman, thanks for your response.

I wrote that baptism should be undergone by those who had received the Holy Spirit. You responded:

If this is true, then it is true in every case, would you agree? Let's look at some more examples.

Yes, it is true in every case occuring after the Holy Spirit had been generally poured out for a people. You cited the example of the Samaritans. The problem with that example is in 8:16, where the Scripture says the Holy Spirit had fallen on none of them. In fact, the Apostles had to go get a special blessing so they could receive the Holy Spirit.

If you take issue with that, then we need to follow completely the example of Acts 8, and your church needs to begin laying on hands to grant the Holy Spirit, as per 8:17.

It had nothing to do with salvation in Acts 8 so why do you want it to in Acts 10? In fact, Acts 11 tells us that the Holy Spirit fell on them as they "began" to speak. You can't believe a message before you hear it. In fact, Peter was to tell him words whereby he could be saved (vs 14-15). Therefore since the Holy Spirit fell on them as they began to speak, it could not have been indicative of their salvation since they had not even heard the words by which they would be saved. After Peter spoke those words, Cornelius was baptized in water.

The Holy Spirit had everything to do with salvation in both cases, lest you deny the Scriptures that say otherwise.

Acts 10 and Acts 11 have no contradiction. Look at how much Peter actually spoke before the Holy Spirit fell on those who heard those words. Fifteen seconds, maybe? That's not much of a sermon, although I might call that "beginning to speak." Then Peter said they had "received" the Holy Spirit. If they had received Him, they were saved, unless, again, you deny the Scriptures that say otherwise.

The fact that He manifested Himself through speaking in tongues does not negate the fact that He indwelled them at that point, thus sealing their salvation. I refer again to Peter's assertion that they had received the Holy Spirit.

So Cornelius and family were saved. To say otherwise is to deny Scriptures. To proclaim that God has said that no one is saved till baptism and then to say Cornelius was saved before baptism (and he definitely was) is to make God a liar. If that's your stance, you take it up with God.

Next point.

Let's read the passages, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27

Notice the phases "in Christ" and "into Christ". You may walk "in a room" only after you have walked "into the room".

Notice, "In Christ" we are sons of God through faith
Because we have been baptized "INTO Christ".

You, sir, are absolutely right. I had mistakenly associated that verse with water baptism, when baptism into Christ is explained as a spiritual thing in I Corinthians 12:13. I'm sorry.

Okay, next point.

Paul is making a contrast of works of darkness verses walking in the light, works of the flesh verses having put on Christ. If you say that a person puts on Christ after becoming a Christian, then you are saying they are walking in darkness and according to the works of the flesh after becoming a Christian and then they put on Christ. No, a Christian has already put on Christ in baptism and Paul is telling them to walk as children of light and not as children of darkness.

You sort of ignored the verse entirely. Romans 13:14 is a command to Christians to put on Christ. It's a command to saved people. Therefore, putting on Christ is not associated with salvation in that passage.

Next point.

First, this passage clearly states that baptism saves you from something. What does baptism save you from?

No, it doesn't wash sins away like it would wash dirt away. That would make the power in the water. The power is not in the water, but the blood. We are baptized because God said so. If God can resurrect Jesus from the dead, he can, by that same power, resurrect me from the watery grave of baptism to walk in a NEW life, and I can have a good conscience because I have trusted God.

Can I frame that quote from you that baptism does not wash sins away?

Anyway, what exactly was Peter saying baptism saves us from? That's a very good question, and it warrants a closer look at the passage than the typical CoC response that "Well, it says baptism saves!"

First, it saves us from whatever the Flood saved Noah from. Now, notice that the passage says that Noah and family were saved by the water. In the same way as they were saved by water, we are saved by the water of baptism, right? But in what way was that? If it were saved in the way the blood of Christ saves us, the analogy would've been for the ark. It was, however, for the water itself.

The water separated Noah and his family from the sinful world around them. It saved them from the world of sin. Baptism separated the first century Christians (much moreso than it does us) from the sinful world around them, being the answer of a good conscience toward God. So it saved them from the world of sin, NOT from their personal sins, just as the water of the Flood did for Noah and his family, as a testimony to our salvation.

How did Paul state it in Rom 6? "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." (vs 3-4).

You know that my view of baptism into Christ is that it is NOT baptism into water, but the spiritual baptism of I Corinthians 12:13. So let's see what you had to say about that verse.

After they had heard the gospel and believed it, they asked what they needed to do. We are all familiar with Peter's answer in verse 38. But actually it was not Peter's instruction it was the Holy Spirit speaking through Peter (Acts 2:4).

So, we have the Spirit, as it were, instructing men to repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins...

Oh, we have those who believe the gospel and by instructions given by the Holy Spirit are baptized and added to the Church. That sounds the same as "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body".

I don't see much similarity between your scenario and the text. Had that been what Paul meant, he would've said something like, "For by one Spirit were we all given instructions to be baptized into water and thus added to one body," and not (as he actually said), "For by one Spirit were we all baptized."

Mman, I simply stuck with the Biblical texts, which show with amazing clarity that water baptism is for disciples who have received the Holy Spirit (now that He is generally available for all). In this response, you went to great lengths to tell me why they didn't mean what they said. I hope that in the future, you will merely stick with what they do say.

Michael

 

[mman]

Mman, thanks for your response.

I wrote that baptism should be undergone by those who had received the Holy Spirit.

Snitzelhoff - Rather than respond to every point, I see a major division between our two points of view. I would like to settle that, then I think we could have more meaningful dialog.

Eph 4:5 states, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism,"

Question, Do you believe there is only one baptism in effect today and if so, what is it?

 

[Snitzelhoff]

I'll begin to answer your question with a question of my own.

Do you believe that there was only one baptism in effect when Paul penned that verse, and if so, what was it?

I'm fairly confident you'll agree that when Paul wrote that verse, there were at least two baptisms in effect: Spirit and water. If we agree on that point, we can continue.

Michael

 

[mman]

I'll begin to answer your question with a question of my own.

Do you believe that there was only one baptism in effect when Paul penned that verse, and if so, what was it?

I'm fairly confident you'll agree that when Paul wrote that verse, there were at least two baptisms in effect: Spirit and water. If we agree on that point, we can continue.

Michael

There was only one, else Paul would have said, there are two baptisms.

If there were really two and Paul said there was one, wouldn't he be a liar?

 

[Snitzelhoff]

You make a good point, Mman. If Paul truly wrote that only one baptism existed and yet more than one baptism existed, then that would make Paul mistaken. I think we can agree that Paul being wrong in that passage is simply not an option. But here's the thing: more than one baptism existed at that point. There existed water baptism, Spirit baptism, and the coming fire baptism. That's three.

Since it's clear from the rest of Scripture that more than one baptism existed, what, then, did Paul intend for us to take from that passage? Let's take a look.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.--Ephesians 4:4-6, NASB

That's the immediate context of the phrase "one baptism." I quoted only that section so we can see the Paul says there is "one" of several items of which there exist many: many bodies, many spirits, many hopes, many lords, and many faiths. However, of each of those, there is only one in which all Christians are united. We are all united in one Body, one Spirit, one Hope, one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism. That meaning meshes perfectly with the context of this passage, which is unity in the Church.

So the existence of more than one baptism is not a problem in that passage. The question then becomes, "What baptism is the one in which ALL Christians throughout all the ages have been united?" The same Paul gives us the answer in I Corinthians 12:13: For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one Body. That baptism, the baptism by the Spirit, is the one in which all Christians everywhere and in all times are united, whether or not they could get to water.

Interestingly, I Corinthians 12 is a passage that runs very much parallel to Ephesians 4.

Michael

 

[mman]

You make a good point, Mman. If Paul truly wrote that only one baptism existed and yet more than one baptism existed, then that would make Paul mistaken. I think we can agree that Paul being wrong in that passage is simply not an option. But here's the thing: more than one baptism existed at that point. There existed water baptism, Spirit baptism, and the coming fire baptism. That's three.

Since it's clear from the rest of Scripture that more than one baptism existed, what, then, did Paul intend for us to take from that passage? Let's take a look.



That's the immediate context of the phrase "one baptism." I quoted only that section so we can see the Paul says there is "one" of several items of which there exist many: many bodies, many spirits, many hopes, many lords, and many faiths. However, of each of those, there is only one in which all Christians are united. We are all united in one Body, one Spirit, one Hope, one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism. That meaning meshes perfectly with the context of this passage, which is unity in the Church.

So the existence of more than one baptism is not a problem in that passage. The question then becomes, "What baptism is the one in which ALL Christians throughout all the ages have been united?" The same Paul gives us the answer in I Corinthians 12:13: For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one Body. That baptism, the baptism by the Spirit, is the one in which all Christians everywhere and in all times are united, whether or not they could get to water.

Interestingly, I Corinthians 12 is a passage that runs very much parallel to Ephesians 4.

Michael

How can you say there were two baptism?

Let's again look at the passage.

Eph4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

One body - What is the body? The church (Eph 1:22-23). There are not 2 churches or multiple churches. Jesus said I will build MY CHURCH (Matt 16:18). THEREFORE, THERE IS ONLY ONE CHURCH. Anything else would be an imposter and not sanctioned by God.

One Spirit - In the Godhead, there is only one Spirit. Jesus said he would send THE comforter, the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:26). He did not send "a" comforter but "the" comforter. To claim that there are multiple Spirits is wrong.

One Hope - There is but one hope. That hope is found in the pages of scripture. That hope is found in Christ (Eph 1:12).

One Lord - There is only one Lord. To argue that there are really two Lords would be contrary to scripture. Eph 5:8, 19 as well as many other passages refer to "THE" Lord, not a Lord.

One Faith - There is but one faith that was once delivered for all time (Jude 3). Yes, people may believe various things, however, there remains only one faith.

One God and Father - There is only one Father in Heaven. This fact is clearly established in scripture. Jesus talked about "the Father", not "a" Father.

One Baptism - To attempt to justify that there are really two baptisms would be as vain as to argue there are really two bodies, two Spirits, two Hopes, two Lords, two faiths, or two Fathers in heaven.

When Paul wrote to the Ephesians, there was but “one baptism” at that time. It is generally conceded that this baptism must be either Holy Spirit baptism, or water baptism.

If it can be shown that the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 is water baptism, then it is obvious that “Spirit baptism” is not the one baptism and therefore no longer available.

Baptism in water is perpetual as demonstrated by the fact that it is the baptism of the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:16). In Matthew’s account, the Lord promised that as long as his people were making disciples, baptizing, teaching, etc., He would be with them always, even to the end of the age. Whatever the baptism of this passage is, therefore, it continues in force until the end. So what is the baptism of the great commission?

The baptism of the great commission must be water baptism. How can I be so sure? First, it is administered by human beings. Jesus said, "Go . . . make disciples . . . baptizing . . .” . This was something that man was commanded to do. Those who were baptized were to be taught all things that Jesus had commanded the them. What had he just commaded? "To go . . . make disciples . . . baptizing them . . .". Therefore the baptized people were to go teach and make more disciples, baptizing them and teaching them to go teach and make more disciples, thus perpetuating the original process. If one claims the one baptism of Eph 4:5 is baptism with the Holy Spirit, then one needs to show when baptism in water was abolished.

On the other hand, Holy Spirit baptism had no human administrator; it was bestowed directly by Christ (Matthew 3:11). It was never a command, but a promise.

It must be concluded, therefore, that the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 was water baptism; consequently, Holy Spirit baptism had become obsolete at the time of Paul's writing.

Lastly, the word baptism, as used in scripture ALWAYS refers to immersion in water, unless the text demands otherwise. That was the common understanding of the word. If I say it is raining, you understand that WATER is falling from the sky. If, however, I say, it is raining pinecones under that tree, you would understand that it is pinecones and not water falling.

So, your argument falls apart on several fronts.

1) When Ephesians was written, there were as many baptisms as there were Fathers in Heaven
2) Baptism in water is a perpetual command to the end
3) Nothing in the text demands that the ordinary meaning of the word be discarded in favor of an obscure meaning