Fun with baptism

[Eric B]

You forget the DUAL meaning: one spiritual baptism represented physically by water baptism (since you can't see the spirit baptism). One baptism, two dimensions. Else, we would only be wet, and not immersed IN the Body of Christ!

Now the other day, you were trying to say that the baptism by the Spirit was the Spirit instructing you to be baptized in water. Have you gone back onthis already?

 

[mnw]

I've got to say, this thread isn't much fun...

Anyway, enjoy these

http://www.reverendfun.com/?date=20010118

http://www.reverendfun.com/?date=20000707

 

[mman]

You forget the DUAL meaning: one spiritual baptism represented physically by water baptism (since you can't see the spirit baptism). One baptism, two dimensions. Else, we would only be wet, and not immersed IN the Body of Christ!

Now the other day, you were trying to say that the baptism by the Spirit was the Spirit instructing you to be baptized in water. Have you gone back onthis already?

I Cor 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit. (ESV)

I Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. (NASB)

I Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (NKJV)

We are not baptized with the Spirit, but by the Spirit.

As far as I know, there are two passages that deal with how we enter the body/church

We have 1 Cor 12:13 and the events in Acts 2. When we read about the actual events in Acts, we know that they are in harmony with the statement we have in I Cor 12:13. From the events in Acts 2 (vs 41, 47), we see they were baptized (in water) and added to the church. They received this instuction from the Holy Spirit, via Peter. Now, I don't think you would agrue that the Holy Spirit is the one that baptized them into one body.

Maybe we've been arguing the same thing, and just have been saying it differently, or maybe we are in opposition, I don't know?

Yes, absolutely, there is a spiritual element to our baptism in water. It cannot be only physical since water has no power to wash away sins whatsoever. I don't literally come in contact with the actual blood that flowed through the Savior's veins, but in a spiritual sense, I do according to Rom 6, since I am baptized into his death. Since I am baptized into his death, the physical aspect and the spiritual aspect, of necessity, occur simultaneously. It is clear to see how the physical aspect of baptism in water is a form of death, burial, and resurrection but the spiritual aspect, that is connected with the physical aspect, cannot be seen, but must occur at the same time, since the physical act results in spiritual benefits (baptized into His death, baptized into Christ, baptized into one body).

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Mman,

You missed my point, or perhaps I simply didn't clarify enough.

The passage:
There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.--Ephesians 4:4-6

The facts:

There is more than one body. I have a body, you have a body, and Christ has a body. There are bodies of people who aren't in the body of Christ. You might work for a company; if so, you are part of yet another body. Yet, there is only ONE body in which all Christians are united.

There is more than one spirit. Paul himself sent unclean spirits out of people. Satan is a spirit. I personally have a spirit, as do you. Yet, there is only ONE spirit in which all Christians are united.

There is more than one hope. I hope it cools off here soon, 'cause I wasn't built for this 100+ degree weather. You have hopes of your own. Yet, there is only ONE hope in which all Christians are united.

There is more than one lord. A lord is someone with authority, and there are many lords in this world. Yet, there is only ONE Lord in whom all Christians are united.

There is more than one faith. Hindu, Islam, Ba'hai, and Mormonism are different faiths. Furthermore, I have faith in your denial of my points, and in the various promises made to me by different people. Yet, there is only ONE faith in which all Christians are united.

There is more than one baptism. Hebrews 6:2, as I will cover momentarily, mentions multiple baptisms. At the time of Paul's writing, the Apostles themselves had only received John's baptism (with the exception of Paul), which you (erroneously, I believe, but that's for a different debate) differentiate from Christian water baptism. So, John's baptism, water baptism. The Scriptures are plain that there existed more than one baptism. Yet, there is only ONE baptism in which all Christians are united.

There is more than one god. Paul says there are "gods many," and we know the Devil is the "god of this world." Yet, there is only ONE God in whom all Christians are united, who is the Father of all.

You follow?

Okay, then, we can move on to another verse:

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.--Hebrews 6:1-2, NKJV

One of the principles of the doctrine of Christ is the doctrine of baptisms. Plural. More than one. The author of Hebrews (I believe to be Paul, but I'm not dogmatic about that) believed that more than one baptism existed.

Finally, the one nail left to drive into the coffin of taking that passage in Ephesians WAY outside what Paul intended...

*waits for the drumroll*

"There is" is NOT in the Greek!

That's right, that passage does not even say "there is... one baptism," but rather reminds us of the unity all Christians have in one baptism.

So, I return to my previous point that Paul, rather than saying there exists but one baptism--a thought that appears nowhere in the passage, nor in its context, nor elsewhere in Scripture--was emphasizing that there is a single baptism in which all Christians are united.

Now, I noticed your response about baptism by the Spirit in I Corinthians 12:13. I'd just like to point out that, according to that verse, the Spirit immerses us into the Body and we drink of the Spirit. The occurance in I Corinthians 12:13 is a purely spiritual one, and one in which all Christians have unity. I wasn't baptized in water by the Holy Spirit; I was baptized in water by a minister. While I was under, I didn't get to drink the stuff I was in, but I assure you, that stuff wasn't the Holy Spirit, either.

So, based on the context of the passage, the text of the passage, and other passages of Scripture, how can you deny that there existed more than one baptism, unless you must continue to do such to protect your doctrine?

What, then, have we seen from the Scriptures?

1. Ephesians 4 does not deny the existence of more than one baptism, based on the text itself, its context, and other passages of Scripture that would positively promote the existence of multiple baptisms.

2. Ephesians 4 mentions one baptism in which all Christians have unity.

3. I Corinthians 12:13 indicates that all Christians have undergone a spiritual baptism and have unity in that baptism and the Spirit behind it.

Michael

 

[mman]

Mman,

You missed my point, or perhaps I simply didn't clarify enough.

The passage:
There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.--Ephesians 4:4-6

The facts:

There is more than one body. I have a body, you have a body, and Christ has a body. There are bodies of people who aren't in the body of Christ. You might work for a company; if so, you are part of yet another body. Yet, there is only ONE body in which all Christians are united.

There is more than one spirit. Paul himself sent unclean spirits out of people. Satan is a spirit. I personally have a spirit, as do you. Yet, there is only ONE spirit in which all Christians are united.

There is more than one hope. I hope it cools off here soon, 'cause I wasn't built for this 100+ degree weather. You have hopes of your own. Yet, there is only ONE hope in which all Christians are united.

There is more than one lord. A lord is someone with authority, and there are many lords in this world. Yet, there is only ONE Lord in whom all Christians are united.

There is more than one faith. Hindu, Islam, Ba'hai, and Mormonism are different faiths. Furthermore, I have faith in your denial of my points, and in the various promises made to me by different people. Yet, there is only ONE faith in which all Christians are united.

There is more than one baptism. Hebrews 6:2, as I will cover momentarily, mentions multiple baptisms. At the time of Paul's writing, the Apostles themselves had only received John's baptism (with the exception of Paul), which you (erroneously, I believe, but that's for a different debate) differentiate from Christian water baptism. So, John's baptism, water baptism. The Scriptures are plain that there existed more than one baptism. Yet, there is only ONE baptism in which all Christians are united.

There is more than one god. Paul says there are "gods many," and we know the Devil is the "god of this world." Yet, there is only ONE God in whom all Christians are united, who is the Father of all.

You follow?

Okay, then, we can move on to another verse:



One of the principles of the doctrine of Christ is the doctrine of baptisms. Plural. More than one. The author of Hebrews (I believe to be Paul, but I'm not dogmatic about that) believed that more than one baptism existed.

Finally, the one nail left to drive into the coffin of taking that passage in Ephesians WAY outside what Paul intended...

*waits for the drumroll*

"There is" is NOT in the Greek!

That's right, that passage does not even say "there is... one baptism," but rather reminds us of the unity all Christians have in one baptism.

So, I return to my previous point that Paul, rather than saying there exists but one baptism--a thought that appears nowhere in the passage, nor in its context, nor elsewhere in Scripture--was emphasizing that there is a single baptism in which all Christians are united.

Now, I noticed your response about baptism by the Spirit in I Corinthians 12:13. I'd just like to point out that, according to that verse, the Spirit immerses us into the Body and we drink of the Spirit. The occurance in I Corinthians 12:13 is a purely spiritual one, and one in which all Christians have unity. I wasn't baptized in water by the Holy Spirit; I was baptized in water by a minister. While I was under, I didn't get to drink the stuff I was in, but I assure you, that stuff wasn't the Holy Spirit, either.

So, based on the context of the passage, the text of the passage, and other passages of Scripture, how can you deny that there existed more than one baptism, unless you must continue to do such to protect your doctrine?

What, then, have we seen from the Scriptures?

1. Ephesians 4 does not deny the existence of more than one baptism, based on the text itself, its context, and other passages of Scripture that would positively promote the existence of multiple baptisms.

2. Ephesians 4 mentions one baptism in which all Christians have unity.

3. I Corinthians 12:13 indicates that all Christians have undergone a spiritual baptism and have unity in that baptism and the Spirit behind it.

Michael

I didn't miss your point at all. There is only ONE Baptism in effect today. I understand your need to "explain away" this clear passage.

Now, read it again, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism". You stated, "Ephesians 4 does not deny the existence of more than one baptism,", well if words have meaning, then YES IT DOES. It denies the existance of more than one Lord, more than one faith, and more than one baptism.

So what is the one baptism? I have already addressed that, it is our baptism in water, which is a perpetual command that will last to the end.

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Ahem. I was not "explaining away" anything; you, however, appear to have a need to dogmatically defend an interpretation of a passage that was quite separated from the author's intended purpose. I showed, using reason, the text in question, context, and other Scriptures, that the passage is clearly not denying the existence of another baptism. Your response to my exegesis boils down to "Nuh-uh!"

Let me know when you read my post, preferably by responding to it in a way that actually shows why I'm wrong with a reason better than because you say so.

Michael

 

[mman]

Ahem. I was not "explaining away" anything; you, however, appear to have a need to dogmatically defend an interpretation of a passage that was quite separated from the author's intended purpose. I showed, using reason, the text in question, context, and other Scriptures, that the passage is clearly not denying the existence of another baptism. Your response to my exegesis boils down to "Nuh-uh!"

Let me know when you read my post, preferably by responding to it in a way that actually shows why I'm wrong with a reason better than because you say so.

Michael

I've already shown you but you ignored it. I didn't want to type it again. For your benefit, I copied it again.

You ignored the following and simply restated your points:

If it can be shown that the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 is water baptism, then it is obvious that “Spirit baptism” is not the one baptism and therefore no longer available.

Baptism in water is perpetual as demonstrated by the fact that it is the baptism of the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:16). In Matthew’s account, the Lord promised that as long as his people were making disciples, baptizing, teaching, etc., He would be with them always, even to the end of the age. Whatever the baptism of this passage is, therefore, it continues in force until the end. So what is the baptism of the great commission?

The baptism of the great commission must be water baptism. How can I be so sure? First, it is administered by human beings. Jesus said, "Go . . . make disciples . . . baptizing . . .” . This was something that man was commanded to do. Those who were baptized were to be taught all things that Jesus had commanded the them. What had he just commaded? "To go . . . make disciples . . . baptizing them . . .". Therefore the baptized people were to go teach and make more disciples, baptizing them and teaching them to go teach and make more disciples, thus perpetuating the original process. If one claims the one baptism of Eph 4:5 is baptism with the Holy Spirit, then one needs to show when baptism in water was abolished.

On the other hand, Holy Spirit baptism had no human administrator; it was bestowed directly by Christ (Matthew 3:11). It was never a command, but a promise.

It must be concluded, therefore, that the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 was water baptism; consequently, Holy Spirit baptism had become obsolete at the time of Paul's writing.

Lastly, the word baptism, as used in scripture ALWAYS refers to immersion in water, unless the text demands otherwise. That was the common understanding of the word. If I say it is raining, you understand that WATER is falling from the sky. If, however, I say, it is raining pinecones under that tree, you would understand that it is pinecones and not water falling.

So, you are agreeing that the one baptism that unites christians, as listed in Eph 4:5, is our baptism in water, right?

 

[Snitzelhoff]

If it can be shown that the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 is water baptism, then it is obvious that “Spirit baptism” is not the one baptism and therefore no longer available.

Well, if that could be demonstrated, then I'll grant that it would at least mean that Spirit baptism is not a baptism in which all Christians are united (the point of that passage, as I showed quite thoroughly, and with which I'm assuming you agree, as you've made no effort to refute). Unfortunately, you have yet to demonstrate that.

Baptism in water is perpetual as demonstrated by the fact that it is the baptism of the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:16). In Matthew’s account, the Lord promised that as long as his people were making disciples, baptizing, teaching, etc., He would be with them always, even to the end of the age. Whatever the baptism of this passage is, therefore, it continues in force until the end. So what is the baptism of the great commission?

The baptism of the great commission must be water baptism. How can I be so sure? First, it is administered by human beings. Jesus said, "Go . . . make disciples . . . baptizing . . .” . This was something that man was commanded to do. Those who were baptized were to be taught all things that Jesus had commanded the them. What had he just commaded? "To go . . . make disciples . . . baptizing them . . .". Therefore the baptized people were to go teach and make more disciples, baptizing them and teaching them to go teach and make more disciples, thus perpetuating the original process. If one claims the one baptism of Eph 4:5 is baptism with the Holy Spirit, then one needs to show when baptism in water was abolished.

I agree all the way up until the very last sentence. Since I very thoroughly demonstrated that Ephesians 4:5 does not in any way deny the existence of more than one baptism, but rather refers to the one baptism in which ALL Christians (even those who can't find water!) have unity, there's no reason why water baptism has to be abolished in order for Spirit baptism to be that one baptism.

On the other hand, Holy Spirit baptism had no human administrator; it was bestowed directly by Christ (Matthew 3:11). It was never a command, but a promise.

A promise fulfilled in every believer, as per I Corinthians 12:13.

It must be concluded, therefore, that the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 was water baptism; consequently, Holy Spirit baptism had become obsolete at the time of Paul's writing.

Non sequitir. You failed to show why the "one baptism" must be water baptism, just as you failed to show why that passage refers to existence rather than a unifying factor.

Lastly, the word baptism, as used in scripture ALWAYS refers to immersion in water, unless the text demands otherwise. That was the common understanding of the word. If I say it is raining, you understand that WATER is falling from the sky. If, however, I say, it is raining pinecones under that tree, you would understand that it is pinecones and not water falling.

So, if I say something like, "Immersed into Jello," you would assume that I mean immersed into Jello, right? Or, if I say, "Immersed into water," you would assume that I mean immersed into water? What if I said, "Immersed into Christ"? Your assumption is not that I mean immersed into Christ, but that it translates somewhow into "immersed into water."

I would say Scripture makes no such across-the-board assumption, and it's up to you to prove it does. I hold that baptism into Christ is a spiritual action, demonstrated by I Corinthians 12:13, which also doesn't mention water, by the way.

Your arguments are circular, based on extra-scriptural assumptions, and driven by terrible exegesis, and still boils down to "It's so because I say it is." However, I took the time to respond anyway. Please do me the same courtesy so this discussion can proceed.

Michael