Fundamentalism and IFBeXtremism

5.) Atonement of sin - substitutionary death of Christ for the sin of His people, (not ALL people, only those for whom he died)

If you include those words "not" and "only", count me out of this definition of IFB I guess.

“Old-fashioned modernism” which will included Scoffield/Darby Dispensational Premillenialism (7 year tribulation/rapture/millennium)

The best fit for all the Bible has to say about eschatology.
The Lord would not have us to be Calvinist's, or Darbyist's, but biblicist's.
Taking the word of God for (exactly) what it says, and not read into it what it does not say-THAT is a good IFB definition.

 

I'm with watchman on the atonement part. Christ died for the sins of all people.

Furthermore you will find elements of what you posted throughout IFB but not in every single place you look and not to the degree you mentioned.

Why don't you spend a little more time taking care of your own walk with the Lord instead of ranting and raving over a particular group of folk or are whether you like it or not apart of the BODY.
Go do your thing for the Lord and let God deal with the problem.
I always get a kick out guys who love to point fingers at the IFB pharisees. When they pass judgement on them aren't they becoming a pharisee themselves?
For example I don't particularly dig the seeker friendly mode of doing things and I don't particularly like alot of the authors, pastors etc.. that promote that style of ministry. Yet if those guys can pretty much line up with that list of fundamentals that you listed then I'm willing to call them brothers.
So as a mature christian why don't you try looking past some of the pettiness and extras that some IFB try to add to the fundamentals and learn to apprectiate some of what they do for the body of Christ. Because like it or not most IFB to a degree would line up with the list of fundamentals you posted in turn your required by God and his word to Love the brethren regardless of some of their quirks. Even if they don't give you the same respect.
Try thinking about that a little bit before you
go off on a pointless rampage against a particular element of folk who make up the body of Christ. I will continue to try and do the same the next time I have to hear about PDL or Willowcreek.

 

I agree somewhat with all three posters above.
I also have a problem with the Atonement as the OP states.

And I understand shannonl's Point.

But the problem with any type of extremism is the attitude of "it is either my way or it is not good enough"

Extremism promotes self.

Somethings I can overlook, but there are somethings that really bother me, and extremism is one.

Of course there can be extremists on both ends of the spectrum.

We should all strive to be Christ-like, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Being a fundamentalist does not mean being a Calvinist. Allow me to repeat that.Being a fundamentalist does not mean being a Calvinist.

By stating that Christ only died for the elect, is putting yourself in a Calvinist box. Most churches, including Regular Baptists do not hold to this narrow belief. For it contradicts scripture. Especially I Tim 4:10 and I John 2:2 and the famous John 3:16.

But even moving beyond this point, evangelical churches, for the most part, are NON denominational in the mainstream. There are literally HUNDREDS of evangelical churches with their own private interpretation of scripture. There are the Pentecostal group, the secret rapture group, the preterist group, the reformed group who baptize infants, the reformed group who baptize only believers, the group who holds to once saved always saved, the group who holds to once saved, one must be faithful to stay saved. The DIFFERENCES are numerous. Yet all these groups claim THEY are fundamental in their beliefs.

When you say "I am a fundamentalist AND YOUR NOT to another Christian, what you are really saying is, MY WAY of interpreting scripture is the right way AND YOUR DEAD WRONG, so you cannot be a true fundamentalist. That is the truth of the matter. So you see, being a so called fundamentalist entails much more than what you claim is one. The folks in the "other church" across from your church on the same street, probably are claiming the same thing.

 

I've never heard of that.. what is that?

Anyway, I too can be counted out of this IFB definition because of the last part of #5..

 

Aundie

The secret rapture group is a belief held by many Christians that Christ will come for the church only, totally unknown to the world.The world will be completely oblivious to what is transpiring. The dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living Christians will be caught up with the dead in Christ, while the world will not know what is happening at this time.

Can you really imagine millions of graves opening up, the trumpet sounding, Christ returning in the clouds and millions of saints rising up in the clouds and the world hears nothing, let alone sees nothing? Incredible! But believe it or not, this is what is believed by many Christians who follow after the teachings of Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye.

 

Alot of what the IFB Mole described is true. And its not just true of the KJVO wing.

If you do not hold to their view of the rapture, for example, you are forced out of the group. It is that simple. And that is extreme.

 

Thanks Ron and Paul. I had never heard of that.. until now.. I agree that I just don't see how that goes along with Bible teaching. Very extreme. What happens if the person flying a plane, or driving a car is saved and leaves in the rapute? How will that be explained?

 

However Ron and Aundie,

the fact that we cannot comprehend every aspect of it does not in and of itself rule it out as a possibility.

Not that I feel the need to defend Lindsey and LaHaye, their book (fiction, remember) does not portray a "secret" rapture. It was in fact very widely known and felt. Personally I believe that when the rapture comes the world will indeed know that something has happened. But I believe there will be some sort of explanation already prepared that the anti-christ will be able to offer the world, and the world will believe it. Complete conjecture on my part, and I do not claim it as "doctrine".

There are some things you might call extreme that to others is just normal. To the world all of US are extreme. Does that mean we really are? Not necessarily.

Those who place unnecessary burdens on people in order to determine their salvation....thats just unBiblical. And there are individuals who act extremely in every group of people.

 

Tinytim speaks with wisdom. Extremism never clandestine. It eventually becomes glaringly obvious. However, by that time, the ability to logically reason with an extremist vanishes.

Logic and extremism are reciprical. When one increases, the other diminishes. For this reason, extremism is easily identifiable.

 

The whole point is, is that the bible indeed teaches a rapture or catching away of the church, but NOT a rapture that is unknown to the world when Christ does return for his own. The very scriptures used for the rapture clearly states a trumpet will sound. Also, nowhere in scripture does it state the saints resurrected bodies will be invisible, but quite the contrary. Some will shine as the sun.

Also a close study of II Thessalonians chapter one shows that when Christ returns for his own, AT THE SAME TIME the wicked will be destroyed by EVERLASTING FIRE. Notice this occurs at the SAME TIME the saints are glorified and not some seven years later as Lindsey and LaHaye falsely teach.II Thess 1:7 thru 10.

 

True. But likely not in any manner remotely resembling anything espoused by Lahaye, Hagee, Lindsey, or anyone else whose name ends in the "ee" sound.

 

Johnv

Correct. Allow ALL the scriptures concerning our Lord's return for his church to be studied. And not just a few isolated ones and you will see very quickly the world will be VERY aware our Lord has returned.

 

True. But likely not in any manner remotely resembling anything espoused by Lahaye, Hagee, Lindsey, or anyone else whose name ends in the "ee" sound. </font>[/QUOTE]Johnv!

Something on which we agree!

At least I think?

 

The point made in the original post was "extreme" fundamentalism. There are indeed those who are extreme in their methods and interpretation of the scriptures. Some of them happen to be fundamental baptists. There are extremists in other groups as well. Would you not consider catholics to be extreme who believe there is no salvation outside the holy catholic church?

Look at the seeker movement. Within that movement there are extremists as well. Not everyone or every church who claims to be seeker friendly would host an ungodly rock party. Some certainly would.

I teach my bible school students that in any issue the truth usually lies right in the middle between the extremists. Look at Calvinism and Free Will. Those who agree to disagree and remain in fellowship have decided not be extreme in their dogma.

Look at the Bible version issue. There are extremists at both ends of the debate.

While I tend to agree, in part, with the original post, I think it is an extreme opinion!!!

 

Very astute. I guaratee, the extremists will likely disagree with you, though

 

You know what is fascinating to me about the old testament. Is most of it is written to explain to the "brethren" on how to get along.

I will say this for an example : I do believe in a pre-trib rapture, a seven year trib and a literal mill. kingdom etcc... Now I have friends who are reformed baptist who disagree with my position. I definitly consider them brethern.
Now I know plenty of IFB who would consider them to be liberal or label them as such. I disagree with that type thinking.

I went to a Dispensational school for most of my undergrad. then I transfered to SEBTS. There I studied Church history our history prof was a calvinist yet we had pre trib,rapture guys on campus too. Anyway I would never have learned about the reformers or any of that if I hadn't attended that school. I'm very glad that I did.
I say that to say that alot of fellows that go to a Disp.type school or have went to one alot of them at least fellows that I know they have never read any theology outside of their dispensational theology. At least your average IFB dispie. fellow.
What I'm driving at is the fact that alot of guys are pre-mill but they can't tell you why they aren't amill. Alot of fellows are of a dispensational bent but they can't say why they don't believe in some of the tenets of reform theology.
The fact of the matter is this. You just don't have any dispensational type guys publishing anything of much substance at least it seems that way. I think this is why alot of IFB guys that are looking for some "meat" so to speak like guys like Johnny Mac. etcc..... They are starting to look beyond the scope of what they were taught.
Do any IFB guys get what I'm saying? I'm not putting this out there to say this is right or wrong or what have you it is just a observation. For example how many guys that came from a dispensational background are actually teaching their people the 7 dispensations? give or take one I suppose. I have even heard some of my more astute dispensational friends relate the fact that they believe that dispensationalism is kind of waning.
I know I just threw red meat to anti-dispies but what says some of you other brethern?

 

I can say that since college I don't think Ive ever been taught anything specifically called "dispensationalist." I mean I haven't seen it defined, or described or taught as such. In fact, I was very surprised awhile back when dispensationalism was discussed on this board. I didn't realize there was such a controversy about it, nor that there were such extreme views within dispie-land.
I also have known people who were very hesitant to declare that they held a mid-trib view, and I couldnt at the time figure out what they were afraid of. I didn't have any problem with them.....

Now I see more.

 

bapmom

The greatest dispensationalist of all was not Scofield but Clarence Larkin. Most of you are to young to know who he was. But he was and still is to me the BEST. His charts and books are a lifetime of work. His book "dispenstional truths" have never been countered as far as I'm concerned.

You are right, dispensational truth is almost unheard of now in Baptist churches and never in non denominational churches. Surprisingly, 30 years ago dispenstional truths were the mainstay of Baptist preaching and teaching. Everyone who was Baptist carried a Scofield bible. My, how times have changed.