Gains are seen against insurgency

Good news! Maybe we can finish reconstruction and get out soon.

Do you think we're going to keep a permanent military base there? After all, we wanted to get our people out of Saudi Arabia and we gotta put them some place. Some place near Iran, maybe?

 

Do as we say, not as we do.

BTW, in another "improvement" Shiite gangs entered a neighborhood, and sytematically killed something like 50 Sunnis. Shortly after, a car bomb killed a number of people at a Shiite mosque.

The US is trying to convince both sides to avoid attacking those who were'nt actually involved..

 

BTW, even if we killed every last member of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, we'd only be back even to the point we were before we invaded.


The only reason Al-Qaeda was able to operate in Iraq was because we made it possible for them.

 

Never fear. US taxpayers aren't building the largest US embassy in the world in Iraq (the size of Vatican City) for nothing.

 

insurgency

Every time there are new lies in the press we get a new word. Don't recall "insurgency" used by the press until this war.

 

Psssssssst, hey General word on the "Arab Street" is that al-Masri is in a jail cell in Egypt and has been for some time. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Actually, it did. Shiites and Sunnis were safe on the streets in Iraq, unless they crossed Saddam. He made sure that anyone who tried to start religious conflict was quickly removed.

Then, as was the case when Tito died in Yugoslavia, we removed Saddam, and more importantly, destroyed the government right down to the precinct level.

And the rest is history.

 

Galatian, you seem to be forgetting about the Kurds. There was genocide in Iraq, just as there has been genocide in virtually every muslim country, including Turkey, Iran, etc. It is the way of islam, genocide, is, to include the countries falling like dominoes in Africa and other regions like Indonesia, where "infidels" are killed as the spread of islam takes root. Islam is linked shoulder to shoulder in political ideology with Nazi fascisim. This is the third jihad.

 

Nope. Although the figure of 300,000 includes well over 200,000 he "killed" because they were fighting a war with Iran.

Right. Crimes of violence back then met with summary executions, particularly those motivated by religious hatred. Not nice, but Iraqis who didn't get involved in politics didn't have to worry about being murdered in their homes.

As you know, all that changed three years ago. Iraqis in most areas live in constant fear of being killed for being Sunni, or for being Shiite, or whatever. The only real peace is in the Kurdish areas. The fact that Saddam ruthlessly killed anyone who wanted to stir up violence was sufficient to keep violence out of the streets.

That's the direction we're moving. Can you imagine even ten years ago, arguing whether about the legality of tapping phones without a warrent, or whether or not the government can legally torture people?

Bush is working on it. These things take time. As Jefferson said, a nation rarely loses it's freedoms all at once. It's a gradual process.

Sure. And Saddam was as bad as they come. The problem with you, carpro, is you feel the need to make anyone you hate, the devil incarnate. You reacted furiously when I pointed out that Saddam (for completely amoral reasons) did some things that benefited the Iraqi people. A rational look would have been a lot more sensible. And if that rationality had ruled a few years ago, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

Never hate your enemies. Understand what motivates them. That way you aren't such easy prey for them.

 

Barbarian observes:
BTW, even if we killed every last member of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, we'd only be back even to the point we were before we invaded.

The only reason Al-Qaeda was able to operate in Iraq was because we made it possible for them.[/quote]

carpro responds:

Barbarian observes:
Actually, it did. Shiites and Sunnis were safe on the streets in Iraq, unless they crossed Saddam. He made sure that anyone who tried to start religious conflict was quickly removed.

carpro tries a quick shuffle:

Not bad, but too slow. :laugh: There was no religious strife in Iraq when Saddam was in charge, because he wouldn't permit it. Not because he was a nice guy, but because it would tear the country apart (as is happening now).

 

That's ethnicity, not religion.

Actually, it isn't. Moslems accept converts. The genocide thing is about culture and territory, not religion.

That's ethnicity, not religion.[/quote]Some sects are, some are not. Same with Christianity.

 

Originally Posted by The Galatian
There was no religious strife in Iraq when Saddam was in charge

Not to mention his Shiite and Christian henchmen. And many Sunnis and Christians and Shiites were killed. Maybe not tens of thousands, but a lot. Not for religious reasons, which meant nothing to Saddam.

Yep. Saddam was a secular Baathist, and didn't give a darn about religion, except as it might help him personally. That's why he made a Christian one of his top henchmen, and recruited Shiites amd Christians into the party.

Youi didn't know this, um?

You get kinda nasty when you're embarassed, don't you? What part of "And Saddam was as bad as they come." don't you understand?

Or did you just lose your temper and make up the nastiest accusation you could think of? It might feel good at the time, but there are consequences for that sort of thing.

If you can't be nice, be careful.

Let me explain it one more time:

The problem with you, carpro, is you feel the need to make anyone you hate, the devil incarnate. You reacted furiously when I pointed out that Saddam (for completely amoral reasons) did some things that benefited the Iraqi people. A rational look would have been a lot more sensible. And if that rationality had ruled a few years ago, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

Never hate your enemies. Understand what motivates them. That way you aren't such easy prey for them.

 

The condition of your soul is your business. I'm just pointing out that you'd be a lot smarter to realistically assess people instead of demonizing anyone you don't like.

Let's take a look... I said...

The only reason Al-Qaeda was able to operate in Iraq was because we made it possible for them.[/quote]

carpro responds:

Quote:
Muslims seem to be best at killing each other. It didn't just start 3 years ago.

Barbarian observes:
Actually, it did. Shiites and Sunnis were safe on the streets in Iraq, unless they crossed Saddam. He made sure that anyone who tried to start religious conflict was quickly removed.

No wonder I thought you were angry. Also, claiming that I was an "apologist" for him, when I told you that he was as bad as they come, that was a big tip-off. You obviously lost your temper, and decided to get personal. Always a big mistake.

It's easy to show, if it's true. Just go back and show that religious strife was common in Iraq prior to the invasion.

Since I don't think you're stupid, I'm finding it kinda hard to see how you could have interpreted "And Saddam was as bad as they come." as being an apologist for him. It's possible you think "apologist" means "critic", or more likely, you just popped your cork and typed without thinking clearly.

Since I specifically mentioned that I was talking about religious strife, yeah, I thought you were addressing what I actually said. You think I'd remember by now.

Yeah, probably why Sunni Muslim Osama bin Laden said he should be killed as an apostate. :laugh:

Baathists are officially secular. He had no religiious faith at all, any more than Hitler did. They both claimed to be religious, but neither followed the precepts of his claimed faith.

And Sunnis, and Christians. In fact, Saddam killed far more Sunnis than Shiites (most Kurds are Sunnis, and he conducted several massacres of Kurds), Is that a surprise for you, too? Seems to be completely incompatible with your claim that it was done for religious reasons, when you match it with your claim that Saddam was a Sunni Muslim.

So we're back to the original point; there wasn't any religious strife in Iraq until Saddam was overthrown. Regardless of whether or not it's nitpicking, it's the truth.