Gen 12:3

[kyredneck]

No comment necessary, but by all means feel free to.

“...and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.” Gen 3:12

How many members here on the BB believe such things as these?:

CURSE THOSE THAT CURSE ISRAEL:
“...It was because the Roman Cornelius of Caesarea was good to the Jews that Cornelius was the first Gentile to receive the gospel......I do not think it is possible to be a good Christian and not stand with Israel and the Chosen People.”
http://bibleprobe.com/curses.htm

“God’s blessing upon a people and nation will depend on how they treat Israel. God promised this to Abraham, the Father of the Jews.....”
http://www.theodoresworld.net/archives/2009/07/antiobama_rally_in_jerusalem_g.html

Blessed Be Israel
“The descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (the Jewish people) are the people mentioned in Genesis 12:3 by which God brings blessings and/or cursings upon individuals, as well as nations, yes, even today.”
http://www.shalom-peace.com/blessed.html

Christians in support of the nation of Israel
“The Bible calls for us Christians to pray for and support the nation of Israel. Genesis 12:3 gives us this commandment from the Almighty God:...“
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=3542366695

“Criticism of Israel and of the United States for supporting it leaves evangelicals unmoved. If anything, it only strengthens their conviction that the world hates Israel because "fallen man" naturally hates God and his "chosen people." In standing by Israel, evangelicals feel that they are standing by God -- something they are ready to do against the whole world. Thus John Hagee....." "God's policy toward the Jewish people," Hagee writes, "is found in Genesis 12:3," and he goes on to quote the passage about blessings and curses. "America is at the crossroads!" Hagee warns. "Will we believe and obey the Word of God concerning Israel, or will we continue to equivocate and sympathize with Israel's enemies?"
http://hnn.us/blogs/comments/29596.html

Those who curse Israel.. The USA?
“..... We also need to be praying that God will show Obama and Clinton along with other government leaders that they will finish off the USA if they continue down their path to force Israel to obey them.”
http://www.thesaintsinlight.com/post/2009/03/Those-who-curse-Israel--The-USA.aspx

America is now experiencing the consequences (curses) of Middle East policies which have been opposed to God's Word and to the preservation of His covenant land....this country's participation in Israel's destiny has been flawed when put in context of Holy Scripture.... if this nation continues to support the Mitchell Plan, affirming a land for peace approach, America can expect to experience the lifting of the Lord's protective hand in an even greater measure.
http://www.watch.org/showart.php3?idx=20174&rtn=/index.html&showsubj=1&mcat=1

“By seeking sanction against Iran, Christians are attempting to be “salt” in preserving Israel and the entire region from bloody conflict......Where is all the support for Israel, God's chosen Land, and for the Jewish people, His chosen people? Genisis 12 says...”
http://www.christianpost.com/articl...rs-call-for-sanctions-against-iran/index.html

 

[RAdam]

I think there is a general misunderstanding of the fact that the Jews are under God's judgement today. I'm not advocating mistreating anyone, just saying that Moses stated the nation would be destroyed and dispersed for continued disobedience to God including prophesying in detail of some events of AD 70. His words were fulfilled.

 

[MNJacob]

The question is what is Israel today?

 

[kyredneck]

I think there is a general misunderstanding of the fact that the Jews are under God's judgement today........

There is a general GROSS misapplication of Gen 12:3 to physical Israel instead of to spiritual Israel, to which it applies, i.e. “Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ..... And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise” [Gal 3:16,29] The promises pertain to the Church of Christ, not to physical descendants of Abraham.

Take note; just as Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness BEFORE circumcision, so was this promise made to him BEFORE circumcision. Paul brings out the significance of that in Romans 4.

This putting the physical Jew on the pedestal and making them 'The Chosen Ones' is an outright lie and deception. It appears more than 50% of those that have voted so far believe this lie.

 

[kyredneck]

The question is what is Israel today?

You tell me. I believe the nation of Israel as it exists today is an aberration. It would not even exist today were it not for the deception of dispensationalism/Christian Zionism that has taken hold within the Church, particularly here in the States.

 

[Winman]

I vote yes, although there are many other factors concerning whether God will bless a nation.

But I do believe God will bless those nations that bless Israel, and curse those who curse Israel.

I disagree with your view on Israel, I think modern Israel is a fulfillment of many prophesies where God said he would gather his people out of many nations and bring them back to their own land.

Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

This prophesy has not been completely fulfilled, because Israel does not yet live in peace. That will occur during the Millennium.

Edit- And though I could be wrong, I do think there is the possibility that the United States is shown in prophesy as helping Israel when many nations come against it in Revelations 12.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

When Satan sends a flood (great army) against Israel, it says Israel will be given two wings of "a great eagle" that will deliver them. I think there is a real possibility this could be the U.S., but I could be wrong.

 

[Ruiz]

A couple of quotes on this topic:

"The Bible establishes the basic divisions of redemptive history into the old covenant, and the new covenant (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25; 2 Cor 3:6; Heb 8:8; 9:15), even declaring that the “new covenant ... has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete is ready to disappear” (Heb 8:13)."

and again

"Despite the dispensationalists’ claim that the Abrahamic covenant involved an unconditional land promise, which serves as one of the bases for the future hope of a millennium, the Bible teaches that Abraham “was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God” (Heb 11:10), and that the city, the “new Jerusalem,” will “descend from God, out of Heaven” (Rev. 21:2)."

and again

"Despite the dispensationalists’ commitment to the “holy land” as a “perpetual title to the land of promise” for Israel (J. D. Pentecost), the New Testament expands the promises of the land to include the whole world, involving the expanded people of God, for Paul speaks of “the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world” (Rom 4:13a). "

and again,

"Despite the dispensationalists’ production of many adherents who “are excited about the very real potential for the rebuilding of Israel’s Temple in Jerusalem” (Randall Price) and who give funds for it, they do not understand that the whole idea of the temple system was associated with the old covenant which was “growing old” and was “ready to disappear” in the first century (Heb 8:13)."

and again

"Contrary to dispensationalists’ expectation of a future physical temple in the millennium, wherein will be offered literal animal blood sacrifices, the New Testament teaches that Christ fulfilled the Passover and the Old Testament sacrificial system, so that Christ’s sacrifice was final, being “once for all” (Heb 10:10b), and that the new covenant causes the old covenant with its sacrifices to be “obsolete” (Heb 8:13)"

finally,

"Contrary to dispensationalism’s populist argument for “unconditional support” for Israel, the Bible views it as a form of Judeaolotry in that only God can demand our unconditional obligation; for “we must obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29); and God even expressly warns Israel of her destruction “if you do not obey the Lord your God” (Deut 28:15, 63)."

Will National Israel occupy the physical Israel? No! The promise is not theirs but it is ours, the new Israel (Jeremiah 31:31; Hebrews 8). All the promises of Yes to those who are in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 1:20; Romans 4:13). God has no obligation to national Israel for that covenant is obsolete. He has made his promises to the Church... there are not two covenants, but one.

 

[Winman]

I disagree Ruiz, Paul spoke of a future time when all of Israel (believeing remnant) will be saved.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[Ruiz]

Please cite the verse. I suspect I know what verses you are alluding to, but I do not believe all of National Israel will be saved. I do believe that we, spiritual Israel, will become a nation, not to bring in the kingdom but when the kingdom is brought in. Yet, I believe it is evidently clear that the old covenant is obsolete as Hebrews 8 clearly states.

 

[Winman]

Please cite the verse. I suspect I know what verses you are alluding to, but I do not believe all of National Israel will be saved. I do believe that we, spiritual Israel, will become a nation, not to bring in the kingdom but when the kingdom is brought in. Yet, I believe it is evidently clear that the old covenant is obsolete as Hebrews 8 clearly states.

Is this question for me? I showed the verses in Romans chapter 11.

You are correct, not all of national Israel will be saved. That has always been the case, back in Elijah's time there were only 7,000 Jews who were truly faithful to God and did not bow the knee to Baal.

And Paul references this:

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

This is from:

1 Kings 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

Elijah was discouraged and wanted to quit the ministry. He complained that he alone was faithful to God. But God told him there was a small remnant, seven thousand men who remained faithful to him.

1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

So, Israel are those Jews who believe, not national Israel.

In Revelations it shows that 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe shall turn to Christ and trust him. This is that "all Israel" that Paul spoke of in Romans 11. He was never speaking of national Israel. However, these Jews will come out of national Israel, just as they did in Elijah's day.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

These 144,000 Jews that will turn to Christ are the "all Israel" which Paul spoke of in Romans 11.

 

[Ruiz]

Winman,

Romans 11 is clear in the presentness of the time Paul has written when he says in Romans 11:5, the next verse you after your citation, "So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace."

In other words, Paul was talking in the present in Romans 11. Secondly, God chose them by Grace.

Then in verse 11 Paul says, "What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,"

Israel (national)failed to obtain it... but now the elect (Christians, those saved by Grace... there is not a division between elect Jews and all the elect) have obtained it! Verse 12 states the Gentiles "full inclusion" into God's plan. It is not a partial inclusion. We are fully included in all of God's plan. Dispensationalists say we are not fully included.

Finally, Paul is making a illusion to I Kings 9, he is not making it a prophetic statement. He is saying, like I Kings 9 where God saved a remnant, so to today. However, the rest of the chapter he expounds on how the Gentiles are fully included.

As for the 144,000 is an illusion to something. I personally believe this is an illusion to the past, not the present. I do not think you can make a solid argument in Revelation for the continuance of an entire theology based on the 144,000 passage.

I, though, believe I have full inclusion. There is no distinction between those saved of a Jewish background and me being saved. We are both the elect.

To try to use Romans 11 to show a future for Israel must take the e

 

[Winman]

Winman,

Romans 11 is clear in the presentness of the time Paul has written when he says in Romans 11:5, the next verse you after your citation, "So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace."

In other words, Paul was talking in the present in Romans 11. Secondly, God chose them by Grace.

Then in verse 11 Paul says, "What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,"

Israel (national)failed to obtain it... but now the elect (Christians, those saved by Grace... there is not a division between elect Jews and all the elect) have obtained it! Verse 12 states the Gentiles "full inclusion" into God's plan. It is not a partial inclusion. We are fully included in all of God's plan. Dispensationalists say we are not fully included.

Finally, Paul is making a illusion to I Kings 9, he is not making it a prophetic statement. He is saying, like I Kings 9 where God saved a remnant, so to today. However, the rest of the chapter he expounds on how the Gentiles are fully included.

As for the 144,000 is an illusion to something. I personally believe this is an illusion to the past, not the present. I do not think you can make a solid argument in Revelation for the continuance of an entire theology based on the 144,000 passage.

I, though, believe I have full inclusion. There is no distinction between those saved of a Jewish background and me being saved. We are both the elect.

To try to use Romans 11 to show a future for Israel must take the e

Yes, Paul did speak of a remnant that believed at that time, but he also spoke of a future time when all of Israel would be saved.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Paul has already spoken of a remnant of Jews who believed in Christ at the time. Then he goes on to speak of the gospel going to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

Now, in verse 25 he explains that at the present time there has come a blindness upon the majority of the Jews, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. This will be all the Gentiles who believed from Paul's time up until the tribulation begins. During the tribulation 144,000 Jews will turn to Christ. When these 144,000 come in, then "all of Israel" will be saved, that is, all that are going to be saved will be saved at this time.

But those 144,000 will come out of national Israel. The tribulation deals with national Israel. Most will not be believers in Christ, they will continue in Judaism and practice sacrifices. But a small remnant, 144,000 will turn to Christ during the tribulation.

 

[Ruiz]

Yes, Paul did speak of a remnant that believed at that time, but he also spoke of a future time when all of Israel would be saved.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Paul has already spoken of a remnant of Jews who believed in Christ at the time. Then he goes on to speak of the gospel going to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

Now, in verse 25 he explains that at the present time there has come a blindness upon the majority of the Jews, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. This will be all the Gentiles who believed from Paul's time up until the tribulation begins. During the tribulation 144,000 Jews will turn to Christ. When these 144,000 come in, then "all of Israel" will be saved, that is, all that are going to be saved will be saved at this time.

But those 144,000 will come out of national Israel. The tribulation deals with national Israel. Most will not be believers in Christ, they will continue in Judaism and practice sacrifices. But a small remnant, 144,000 will turn to Christ during the tribulation.

The problem with your interpretation of Romans 11:25 is that it takes a phrase and tries to apply a preconceived theology to that phrase, but the context does not support the context. Even if what I am about to say about the text is wrong, the text would be entirely vague that it could not and may not state what you are saying.

If we understand that the context of what is being said determines the nature of the how we interpret verse 25, I believe we can have a more clear understanding.

1. Paul clearly stated the full inclussion in verse 12, your interpretation seems to contradict verse 12.

2. Romans 10:12 Paul says there is no distinction between Greek and Jew.

3. If Paul is speaking of a future mass conversion of the nation of Israel, then he is destroying the entire development of his argument in chaps. 9-11.

Next line of thinking about God casting off Israel?

1. The logic Paul is addressing went like this "since Israel nationally rejected Christ, they should be rejected nationally."

2. Paul shows in verses with the "remnant" and the phrasing of the present tense, that there were some God has kept for himself.

The next line of thinking about the Mystery.

1. The mystery was threefold: the hardening of Israel, the coming fullness of the Gentiles, and the salvation of all of Israel.

2. Israel is said to be "partially" hardened, not temporarily hardened. The word partially is in relation to the number in Israel, not to time. The other places in Romans near to this verse indicates this is a quantitative expression.

3. The word until in the phrase, "until the fullness of the Gentiles.." This phrase in Greek is often used as the finalization of events, not referring to what happens after the event takes place. In other words, what is important is not what will take place after the event is completed, but that the event is eschatologically fulfilled (cf I Co 11:26 and I Co 15:25).

4. Likewise, the hardening of Israel that will occur "until" the fullness of the Gentiles comes refers to an eschatological termination. A hardening will occur throughout the whole of the present age until the return of Christ. Paul is not suggesting a time when the hardening will be reversed but a time when the hardening is eschatologically fulfilled

5. Most dispensationalists tend to interpret the end of this verse saying "then all Israel will be saved." However, this is not the interpretation needed. However, the word "then" is used here as temporal and this is not the normal reading of this word and is rejected in most other places by scholars. The other way of interpreting is, "in consequence of this process, all Israel will be saved."

Henderickson writes:

It is evident ... that the salvation of "all Israel" was being progressively realized in Paul's own day and age, and that it will continue to be progressively realized until "all Israel" shall have been saved. When the full number of elect Gentiles will have been gathered in, then the full number of elect Jews will also have been gathered in.... In Elijah's day there was a remnant. In Paul's day there was a remnant. In the years to come there would be a remnant. These remnants of all the ages taken together constitute "all Israel.""

Finally, since Paul goes out of his way to show that Israel has no special plans for the future, I think this is the best interpretation. I do not find making "until" to mean what it does not makes this better.

 

[Winman]

All I can say is that there are numerous passages that show Israel will be gathered from all the nations as they have been today, that the Lord will dwell with them, and they shall be saved.

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

What happened in 1948? The Jews were brought from all nations of the world back to their homeland. Notice in verse 11 it speaks of this being the second regathering, so this is not the Jews being brought back from Babylon.

Jer 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
43 And fields shall be bought in this land, whereof ye say, It is desolate without man or beast; it is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.
44 Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.

These are but a few passages that God will bring back the Jews to Israel and make an everlasting covenant with them. There are many more besides these. Note that the promise is not just to save them, but to bring them back to their land.

If this does not convince you, I do not know what will. You see the Jews back on their land today, just as the Lord said.

 

[kyredneck]

Must needs be

.... I think modern Israel is a fulfillment of many prophesies .....

I agree, although from a totally different angle than yours. It 'must be' that the scriptures be fulfilled. Consider all these 'must need be' prophecies, and rethink from another perspective. Just because it's 'prophecy fulfilled' doesn't mean it's good. There are many prophecies that 'must be' that are evil. There are good and there are evil prophecies that 'must be' fulfilled:

Satan must be loosed:
3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time. Rev 20

Wars must come to pass:
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be not troubled: these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet. Mk 13

Deceivers must come:
7 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh! Mt 18

All that is written must come to pass:
44 And he said unto them, These are my words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me. Lu 24

It must be that our Lord was reckoned with the transgressors:
37 For I say unto you, that this which is written must be fulfilled in me, And he was reckoned with transgressors: for that which concerneth me hath fulfilment. Lu 22

It must be that He should die:
53 Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?
54 How then should the scriptures be fulfilled that thus it must be? Mt 26

It must be that He be betrayed:
12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name which thou hast given me: and I guarded them, and not one of them perished, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Jn 17
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the Harlot, Mystery Babylon, is correctly understood to be none other apostate Judaism, then other 'spiritual 'must needs be' passages will come to light:

7 (and, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead); and this is a woman sitting in the midst of the ephah.
8 And he said, This is Wickedness: and he cast her down into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there came forth two women, and the wind was in their wings; now they had wings like the wings of a stork; and they lifted up the ephah between earth and heaven.
10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
11 And he said unto me, To build her a house in the land of Shinar [BABYLON]: and when it is prepared, she shall be set there in her own place. Zech 14

Yea, modern Israel may be prophecy fulfilled, but it is Wickedness. It is Wickedness for the Church of Christ to marvel and wonder after that old whore. IMO, those that blindly, glibly support her and take glee in her actions also take part in the atrocities that she routinely commits.

Physical Israel should mean no more to the Church than the Inuit.

 

[kyredneck]

.....Will National Israel occupy the physical Israel? No! The promise is not theirs but it is ours, the new Israel (Jeremiah 31:31; Hebrews 8). All the promises of Yes to those who are in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 1:20; Romans 4:13). God has no obligation to national Israel for that covenant is obsolete. He has made his promises to the Church... there are not two covenants, but one.

Amen, Amen, and Amen. Good post.

......Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever.....Mt 21:19

Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her. And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee; and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18:20-24

 

[Winman]

I don't believe Revelations 18 fits Israel at all except for the very last verse.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

This is the only verse that could apply to Israel. Israel is not nearly the wealthiest country at all, ranking about 49th on one list of wealthiest nations I looked at.

But it is true that Israel has the blood of prophets in it, and the blood of saints. However it does not have the blood of all that were slain upon the earth.

Again, it is clearly shown that 144,000 Jews will be saved in Revelations, 12,000 from each tribe.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Jesus told Peter that the apostles would judge the twelve tribes of Israel in the regeneration.

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

In Acts, Paul speaks of this as being future.

Acts 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Now, if anybody knew what would become of the Jews, it is Paul. And here he is speaking of a future hope for Israel.

Paul didn't say God was finished with Israel here, he said just the opposite. He spoke of the promise made unto "our fathers" and the promise made to the "twelve tribes" and said they "hope to come".

 

[kyredneck]

Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labor for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Isa 55:1,2

Winman, I actually feel sorry for literalists like you. The letter kills the message. It's the Spirit that gives life to it, and for the most part the Bible is actually a self interpreting book if we only pay close attention without bias and let it do it.

Do you actually believe that in Rev 18 it's referring to literal “merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stone, and pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet; and all thymine wood, and every vessel of ivory, and every vessel made of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble; and cinnamon, and spice, and incense, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and cattle, and sheep; and merchandise of horses and chariots and slaves; and souls of men” and not something deeper on a spiritual level?

Do you also believe the passage from Isaiah above is referring to literal buying, eating, wine, milk, and bread?

Do you believe that Canaan was a land that literally flowed with milk and honey?

......and I could go on and on and on and on with this.

 

[percho]

Questions???
Is the church (the called out ones) these-Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace? After all it is by grace we are saved.

Who do you think is Paul's scriptural concept of these- the fullness of the Gentiles?

According to scripture who are the fullness of the Gentiles or do we know?

 

[Winman]

Winman, I actually feel sorry for literalists like you. The letter kills the message. It's the Spirit that gives life to it, and for the most part the Bible is actually a self interpreting book if we only pay close attention without bias and let it do it.

Do you actually believe that in Rev 18 it's referring to literal “merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stone, and pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet; and all thymine wood, and every vessel of ivory, and every vessel made of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble; and cinnamon, and spice, and incense, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and cattle, and sheep; and merchandise of horses and chariots and slaves; and souls of men” and not something deeper on a spiritual level?

Do you also believe the passage from Isaiah above is referring to literal buying, eating, wine, milk, and bread?

Do you believe that Canaan was a land that literally flowed with milk and honey?

......and I could go on and on and on and on with this.

You don't need to feel sorry for me, I am fine. :tongue3:

Yes, I take the scriptures very literally. That doesn't mean I don't recognize symbolism. But I believe in most instances, when the scriptures CAN be taken literally, they should be.

Can a city be rich? YES. In fact, I used to wonder if Revelations 18 was not speaking of New York City. It certainly fits the description shown except for the last verse. However, the blood of prophets does not necessarily mean those prophets in the OT like Isaiah or Ezekiel. All Christians are prophets in the sense that all Christians are "forth tellers" who tell people of the scriptures and the gospel.

But even here I do not think New York City fits the description. The United States is a country that has promoted the gospel, not killed prophets and saints.

Rome on the other hand has been responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Christians through the centuries.

Lately, I have come to believe that Dubai in the United Arab Republic could be the Babylon shown to be overthrown in Revelations 18. This is a city that has come out of nowhere in just the last 20 years. It has the tallest buildings in the world, nearly 3 times the height of the Empire State Building. When I see these skyscrapers in Dubai I am immediately reminded of the Tower of Babel, where men tried to build a tower to heaven.

The fantastic thing about this photo is that they are already building another building even taller than this one. And Dubai is part of the old Babylonian empire.

And look at recent history. Who is the greatest enemy of Christianity today? The Muslims. Now, at this present moment the UAR has good relations with the west, but that could easily change tomorrow. If there was war to break out between Iraq and Israel which is a possibility, whose side do you think the UAR would take? I wouldn't bet on them taking our side.

It mentions pearls in Revelation 18 and puts an exclamation mark after the word pearls.

Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Dubai fits Revelations 18 very well in that it is a seaport, so the merchants of the sea can see it afar off, but it was also the world's center for pearls in the past.

Now, I could be all wrong on this, but so far this city fits with what I read in Revelations 18 very well.

But the city just represents a system. It is humanism really. It is the belief that man can become god, thus the tall buildings that reach to heaven. It is actually the whole world that is in this system, the city simply represents it.

And as far as a land flowing with milk and honey, everybody understands that as a land with much natural resources.