Gentiles salvation During the Law?

[drfuss]

During the time of the law (Moses to Christ), could Gentiles be saved? If so, what did they have to do, if anything?

Some have said that unless Gentiles joined Israel and worshipped like the Jews, they would not be saved. Others have said that the Gentiles could be saved completely independent of Jewsih worship or the Law. Note that the law includes worshipping God as well as other requirements.

 

[AAA]

During the time of the law (Moses to Christ), could Gentiles be saved? If so, what did they have to do, if anything?

Some have said that unless Gentiles joined Israel and worshipped like the Jews, they would not be saved. Others have said that the Gentiles could be saved completely independent of Jewsih worship or the Law. Note that the law includes worshipping God as well as other requirements.

Whenever I was a child and young adult I thought the gentiles could NOT be saved, but I noticed that RUTH (am I correct) was a gentile and she worshipped the way that the Jews did....Abraham was NOT always considered a JEW, but GOD saved him. Enoch was a gentile and GOD saved him. In short GOD saved many gentiles the same way that HE saves them now...By GRACE....

 

[Cutter]

Whenever I was a child and young adult I thought the gentiles could NOT be saved, but I noticed that RUTH (am I correct) was a gentile and she worshipped the way that the Jews did....Abraham was NOT always considered a JEW, but GOD saved him. Enoch was a gentile and GOD saved him. In short GOD saved many gentiles the same way that HE saves them now...By GRACE....

Good answer! Thanks. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here is a verse I have posted before on like topics.
Am 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Thoughts?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ro 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

HP: It would seem to me that any Gentile that might have happened to be saved in the OT owed a debt of gratitude to the Jews, for without that which they penned and passed down from generation to generation, there would be no salvation message proclaimed to the world.

Scripture states someone must act as a preacher. To be a preacher one must have some truth as to the message, and it was to the Jews alone that responsibility fell. How could a Gentile hear of the message of the plan of salvation apart from the oracles written by the Jews?

With that said, are we to suppose that the Jew had the right to proclaim forgiveness of sins by the gospel message we know as 'the gospel of grace,' then as we do today? Was that the message given to them by God? What was the plan of salvation as revealed to the Jews by God? Was it, ‘obey the law and complete the sacrifices as mandated IF you so desire, but all you really have to do is accept salvation by grace?’ Was it 'do this now, once for all, and you shall have eternal life,' or was there a mndated repetition for any wanting salvation to be accomplished year after year?

If a Gentile walked up to a Jew desirous of obtaining salvation, what instructions could they have given anyone as to what to do to be saved as directed by God? If a Gentile asked a Jew, ‘I wish to have my sins remitted and enter into a right relationship with God,’ what would have you told them and by what authority could you point to as proof as to the validity of your answer that was available to the Jews in the OT? Would there have been anything at the time that could have assured one of continued forgiveness of sins, other than continued yearly sacrifices commaded to be made and circumcision enjoined by all males?

 

[BobRyan]

During the time of the law (Moses to Christ), could Gentiles be saved? If so, what did they have to do, if anything?

Some have said that unless Gentiles joined Israel and worshipped like the Jews, they would not be saved. Others have said that the Gentiles could be saved completely independent of Jewsih worship or the Law. Note that the law includes worshipping God as well as other requirements.

The Jews in the NT era made up the idea that Gentiles had to "become Jews" in fact we see it in Acts 15 and there the Apostles flatly deny it.

In the OT God never said that Gentiles must be Jews to be saved.

They had to worship the One true God and they had to keep His Commandments -- honor His word.

They did NOT have to observe the feasts of Israel NOR join the nation of Israel NOR be circumcised etc then or now.

ONE GOSPEL Gal 1:6-11 in all of time.

BY FAITH are you saved through FAITH!

The ONE Gospel is written in covenant form as the NEW Covenant and it is given in the OLD Testament.

The Giants of Faith listed in Heb 11 were born-again saved saints IN the OT.

In fact Enoch and Elijah were taken directly to heaven as PROOF that they were not merely "symbolically saved" but OT saints were REALLY saved. (ENoch is not a Jew BTW).

"God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" .. not "God so loved the JEWS that HE gave".

God so Loved the WORLD that HE Gave -- not God so loved the "elect FEW" that He gave.

God says in the OT "COME to ME ALL ends of the earth and BE SAVED" Is 45:22.

There is a persistant Calvinist fallacy that "God just does not love everyone like the Bible says He does" and it is either applied to just the OT or to BOTH OT and NT. It is wrong to adopt that error no matter if your are speaking to OT mankind or NT mankind. For 120 years God preaches to the WORLD through Noah -- this is God who "So loved the WORLD" not just "The Jews".

Enoch and Noah -- non-Jews "Walked with God"

The King of Salem -- non-Jew was the "Priest of God" during the days of Abram.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: The Jews in the NT era made up the idea that Gentiles had to "become Jews" in fact we see it in Acts 15 and there the Apostles flatly deny it.

In the OT God never said that Gentiles must be Jews to be saved.

They had to worship the One true God and they had to keep His Commandments -- honor His word.

They did NOT have to observe the feasts of Israel NOR join the nation of Israel NOR be circumcised etc then or now.

ONE GOSPEL Gal 1:6-11 in all of time.

HP: Were any of the things you mention here obligatory for the Jew? Was a Jew required to be circumcised, observe the feasts, bring sacrifices and offerings etc?

Why would you interject a passage in the NT once Christ had fulfilled the law as evidence that such always had been that way even in the OT? Certainly we as Christian believers have been freed from the ceremonial law with its sacrifices, circumcision, feasts, etc. for Christ was the fulfillment of those things. This discussion is about Gentiles salvation under the law, NOT believers salvation under the New Covenant.

BR: BY FAITH are you saved through FAITH!

HP: Now that is a novel slogan.

 

[Brother Bob]

Whenever I was a child and young adult I thought the gentiles could NOT be saved, but I noticed that RUTH (am I correct) was a gentile and she worshipped the way that the Jews did....Abraham was NOT always considered a JEW, but GOD saved him. Enoch was a gentile and GOD saved him. In short GOD saved many gentiles the same way that HE saves them now...By GRACE....

Ruth was a Gentile, the mother of Obed, the Father of Jesse, the father of King David.
So, even Mary and Joseph had Gentile blood in them.

For a Gentile to be saved, they had to do as Ruth did. They had to accept Israel's God as their God.

As we all have to go through Christ today, they all had to go through Israel.

BBob,

 

[steaver]

Ruth was a Gentile, the mother of Obed, the Father of Jesse, the father of King David.
So, even Mary and Joseph had Gentile blood in them.

For a Gentile to be saved, they had to do as Ruth did. They had to accept Israel's God as their God.

As we all have to go through Christ today, they all had to go through Israel.

BBob,

Simple and excellent answer! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

The Giants of Faith listed in Heb 11 were born-again saved saints IN the OT.

You have a great deal of trouble understanding the NT, post ressurrection teaching of regeneration. The OT saints had no such experience.

Niccodemus hadn't a clue what Jesus was speaking of and Jesus scolded him for being a Pharisee, (who in his heart believed he knew it all) , yet did not relate the OT scriptures of the new heart to the spiritual rebirth that was to come to believers through the Holy Spirit regeneration. David cried out for this new heart. Nic might have asked "do you mean the new heart David spoke of, Jesus?"

Nic could have asked Jesus to teach him about this "born-again" but Nic protested instead. So Jesus scolded him for being a Pharisee 'know it all' rather than actually learning something from Him. Nic did after all say he believed Jesus was a teacher sent from God, but yet he contested rather than say teach me more!

:thumbs:

 

[windcatcher]

You have a great deal of trouble understanding the NT, post ressurrection teaching of regeneration. The OT saints had no such experience.

Niccodemus hadn't a clue what Jesus was speaking of and Jesus scolded him for being a Pharisee, (who in his heart believed he knew it all) , yet did not relate the OT scriptures of the new heart to the spiritual rebirth that was to come to believers through the Holy Spirit regeneration. David cried out for this new heart. Nic might have asked "do you mean the new heart David spoke of, Jesus?"

Nic could have asked Jesus to teach him about this "born-again" but Nic protested instead. So Jesus scolded him for being a Pharisee 'know it all' rather than actually learning something from Him. Nic did after all say he believed Jesus was a teacher sent from God, but yet he contested rather than say teach me more!

:thumbs:

Excellant points/ example made reminding me what attitude, openness, and honor with which to approach God when studying the Scriptures.:thumbs: :godisgood:

 

[billwald]

In each dispensation God specifies a social contract for obtaining temporal benefits. The Mosaic Covenant was strictly a social contract for the covenant community in that dispensation.

In this dispensation the Church is God's social contract. It should be obvious that church membership conveys temporal benefits to every member and it should be obvious that not every church member is saved.

Salvation has always been by election. God can save anyone he chooses "in" Christ Jesus.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: Ruth was a Gentile, the mother of Obed, the Father of Jesse, the father of King David.
So, even Mary and Joseph had Gentile blood in them.

For a Gentile to be saved, they had to do as Ruth did. They had to accept Israel's God as their God.

As we all have to go through Christ today, they all had to go through Israel.

HP: I like what you say here Brother Bob. There was One God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and it was to them that God revealed a plan of redemption and prescribed a course, a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ. If we are to take the notions that BR has set forth, it would appear to me that one had the full right to tell God, I do not need to be circumcised, I do not need to bring all those sacrifices for sin, especially year after year! I will just accept your salvation by faith and bypass all that meaningless exercise in futility going on at the temple in Jerusalem. I will worship up on the mountain of my choice in faith. And as for carrying around that Ark on our shoulders…….. that is what we have carts and donkeys for. If it starts to fall off, we can just steady it as we go along…..or so thought Uzza.

God has only had one plan of redemption, but God did not reveal that plan apart from types and shadows for reasons known only to Himself, and even then only via a covenant relationship between Himself and Abraham and his seed after him. For man to be right with God man was to follow the prescribed plan as He set it forth. Certainly no man was under obligation to take the law, as given by God, to the twisted extremes some Jews took it, but just the same, it was to the Jew alone that He revealed the plan and not to the Gentiles. That remained the same until the Jews rejected Christ. When Christ came he made it clear who it was His ministry was directed, and it was NOT in the beginning of His ministry to the Gentiles. Jesus said, Mt 15:24 “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” We have reason to be thankful that the Jews rejected Christ at His coming, for it was subject to their rejection that the way was made for us to be offered redemption through His blood.

God had no covenant with the Gentiles. It would appear to me that subsequent to and apart from that covenant with Abraham there was no salvation or means by which to have a relationship with God that I find in Scripture. I am still listening, and I certainly can be corrected.

 

[Brother Bob]

HP: I like what you say here Brother Bob. There was One God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and it was to them that God revealed a plan of redemption and prescribed a course, a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ. If we are to take the notions that BR has set forth, it would appear to me that one had the full right to tell God, I do not need to be circumcised, I do not need to bring all those sacrifices for sin, especially year after year! I will just accept your salvation by faith and bypass all that meaningless exercise in futility going on at the temple in Jerusalem. I will worship up on the mountain of my choice in faith. And as for carrying around that Ark on our shoulders…….. that is what we have carts and donkeys for. If it starts to fall off, we can just steady it as we go along…..or so thought Uzza.

God has only had one plan of redemption, but God did not reveal that plan apart from types and shadows for reasons known only to Himself, and even then only via a covenant relationship between Himself and Abraham and his seed after him. For man to be right with God man was to follow the prescribed plan as He set it forth. Certainly no man was under obligation to take the law, as given by God, to the twisted extremes some Jews took it, but just the same, it was to the Jew alone that He revealed the plan and not to the Gentiles. That remained the same until the Jews rejected Christ. When Christ came he made it clear who it was His ministry was directed, and it was NOT in the beginning of His ministry to the Gentiles. Jesus said, Mt 15:24 “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” We have reason to be thankful that the Jews rejected Christ at His coming, for it was subject to their rejection that the way was made for us to be offered redemption through His blood.

God had no covenant with the Gentiles. It would appear to me that subsequent to and apart from that covenant with Abraham there was no salvation or means by which to have a relationship with God that I find in Scripture. I am still listening, and I certainly can be corrected.

There were many Gentiles, who accepted Israel ways and Israel's God that were accepted of God.(God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which was and is Israel's God). It was the only thing in town.

BBob,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: The Jews in the NT era made up the idea that Gentiles had to "become Jews" in fact we see it in Acts 15 and there the Apostles flatly deny it.

In the OT God never said that Gentiles must be Jews to be saved.

They had to worship the One true God and they had to keep His Commandments -- honor His word.

They did NOT have to observe the feasts of Israel NOR join the nation of Israel NOR be circumcised etc then or now.

ONE GOSPEL Gal 1:6-11 in all of time.

HP: BR, I have not heard your answer yet to these simple questions.
Were any of the things you mention here obligatory for the Jew? Was a Jew required to be circumcised, observe the feasts, bring sacrifices and offerings etc?

 

[drfuss]

John 4:21,22
21 "Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."


In John, Jesus tells the Samaritan woman that salvation is of the Jews implying that Samaritans cannot be saved. Does that mean that Gentiles must become Jews to receive salvation?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Drfuss: In John, Jesus tells the Samaritan woman that salvation is of the Jews implying that Samaritans cannot be saved. Does that mean that Gentiles must become Jews to receive salvation?

HP: Excellent question. What do you think?

Doesn’t it depend on whether or not you are referring to those living in this dispensation or the ones of the OT or both? Would it also not depend on ones definition of a Jew? Paul stated Ro 2:28 “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:”

 

[LeBuick]

When ever I think of OT Gentiles i think of Noah and Lot or even Abraham (who incidentally was not a Jew and was never under the laws of Moses). Thinking of them assures me God was always God and there was always "sheep not of this fold".

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ro 2:28 “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:”

Le Buick, could you define for us who exactly is a Jew in your estimation, keeping in mind this statement of Paul? Are all believers Jews according to Paul?

'If' we as believers are Jews according to Paul, why would not have Abraham been a Jew by Paul's definition if in fact all his children are? Could not Abraham be rightfully called the father of our faith in at least a sense?

 

[LeBuick]

Ro 2:28 “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:”

Le Buick, could you define for us who exactly is a Jew in your estimation, keeping in mind this statement of Paul? Are all believers Jews according to Paul?

'If' we as believers are Jews according to Paul, why would not have Abraham been a Jew by Paul's definition if in fact all his children are? Could not Abraham be rightfully called the father of our faith in at least a sense?

Interesting point... The traditional Jew is a descendant of Jacob. Abraham was not his descendant though he is the Patriarch or "Father" of the faith.

The way Paul is using the word Jew is to imply God's people or one belonging to God. Again, man misunderstood God and felt just the removal of foreskin made you belong to God. This was no different than how we view baptism today.

Paul was saying it was not the removal of your foreskin that made you belong to God, it is the circumcision of the heart which can only be done by the Holy Spirit.

Here are some interesting OT verses to ponder;

Deut 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Dt 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

These verses show that what Paul was teaching was not a new theology, he was telling them to really read the theology they already had.

Here is a verse for you to expound on. What does Paul mean here?

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.