Gift of Prophecy

Why not? I've never actually seen it happen, perhaps because the Bible already contains as much prophecy as we need. but that doesn't mean it will never happen. But if God tells us something directly are we even going to believe it was really God? have you ever had a dream or a very strong thought about someone, but felt like you would feel like an idiot telling them or were afraid they would think you were nuts, then it actually happened? Hmm, what do you think that was?

 

The Apostle Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 13:8, "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." So, we know that prophecies will fail (not fail to come to pass, but fail in the sense of no longer being given) at some point in history. The question is "when?" Verse 10, I believe, tells is when that will be, "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." When we look carefully at this verse we see that it has no subject. "that which is perfect" is a adjectival phrase substituting for the understood subject. We note also that the prevailing rule of grammar insists that "prefect" and "in part" refer to the same thing. If we look at verse 8 again we see that tongues, prophecy and knowledge were all forms of direct revelation which God gave to the early church through the Apostles. So, if we use the contextually understood subject "revelation" we find "But when that (revelation) which is perfect (complete, mature) is come, then that (revelation) which is in part (in the form of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge) shall be done away."

I believe the partial revelatory gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge passed away with the completion of the NT (the perfect revelation). It must be understood that the gifted men did not wake up one morning and find their gifts no longer worked, but that new converts were no longer being given these revelatory gifts, and as the gifted Apostles and prophets grew old and died, the gifts died with them.

I believe Paul confirms that these gifts were no longer being given even at the time he was writing, for he says in verse 13, "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." Note he says "now abideth . . . these three (not six), faith, hope, charity (but not tongues, prophecy, and knowledge).

I believe prophecy passed away with the passing of the Apostolic age and the completion of the NT.

[ April 21, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]

 

As to prophecy, if the prophecies agree with the Bible they're needless. If they don't agree with the Bible they're false.

 

For a good discussion from a non-cessationist position, see John Piper at http://desiringgod.org/Online_Library/OnlineArticles/Subjects/SpiritualGifts/SpiritualGiftsIndex.htm


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
As to prophecy, if the prophecies agree with the Bible they're needless. If they don't agree with the Bible they're false.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

I have to say I believe the gifts still exist. What Paul was speaking of in Corinthians may be prophecies concerning the Bible and God, given by the then modern day prophets and priests. Of course after Jesus died there was no need for the high priesthood anymore, as we were instantly able to go directly to God after Jesus' death, as symbolized by the ripping of the veil in the temple. This is where I see an argument against people like Joseph Smith and others who claim to be receiving direct revelation from God on how the church should operate and believe, and J.S. even claims God gave set us up with a new dispensation.
Like I said earlier, I believe the gift of prophesy exists in the manner of which I spoke. The gift of tongues may exist through a missionary in a foreign country easily picking up the native language. The gift of healing may be seen in a surgeon with specialized abilities.
Jesus came not to do away with the law, but to perfect it and make it WHOLE. Look at sacrificing to take away sin. We no longer use animals, but Christ is the eternal sacrifice, and every time a Christian sins he re-sacrifices Jesus. The same rules apply to the whole law today. It is not gone, just changed.
Gina

 

If that which is perfect has come then the gift of prophecy is infact gone.

BUT is "that which is perfect" the NT? I don't think it is. That which is perfect will only be when we stand before the throne and can see thru the dark glass. THEN that which is perfect will have come. At that point will we have perfect understanding and not until.

Also, if prophesy is done away with, how will we explain the two prophets of Revelation? If the gift has ceased, how will the two prophets get it?

YSIC,
WHEY

 

That which is perfect was Jesus. The two prophets come after Jesus returns, at which time there will be a new dispensation and different rules will apply.

 

Where exactly in scripture do you find the new rules?

YSIC,
Whey

 

God didn't tell us what they would be. Perhaps because we won't be here when the new dispensation is, so what's the point in giving information that will occur beond our time here? Who knows the reasons why.
There are four different time frames here.
1. Creation until the first sin.
3. The first sin until the Atonement.
4. The atonement until the return.
5. From the return until the end.

 

Who, or what, are the "Two Prophets"? The Reformers (who were cessationists) believed the two prophets to be the Old and New Testaments. Be careful not to over-literalize apocaplytic literature

Or, as Baptist theologian John Gill stated, they may be the gospel and the NT church:

Ver. 3. And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, &c.] By whom are meant, not Enoch and Elias, as some of the ancient fathers thought, who, they supposed, would come before the appearance of Christ, and oppose antichrist, and be slain by him, which sense the Papists greedily catch at; nor are the Scriptures, the two Testaments, Old and New, designed, though their name and number agree, and also their office, which is to testify of Christ; but then to be clothed in sackcloth, to be killed, and rise again, and ascend to heaven, are things that cannot so well be accommodated to them: but these witnesses intend the ministers of the Gospel and churches of Christ, who have bore testimony for Christ, and against antichrist, ever since he appeared in the world; and particularly the churches and ministers in Piedmont bid fair for this character; who were upon the spot when antichrist arose, always bore their protest against him, and were ever independent of the church of Rome, and subsisted in the midst of the darkness of the apostasy; and suffered much, and very great persecutions, from the Papists; and have stood their ground, and continue to this day; and have been like olive trees and candlesticks, imparting oil and light to others. Though they ought not to be considered exclusive of other ministers and churches, who also have bore, and still do bear a witness for Christ, and against the idolatries of the church of Rome: no two individual persons can be meant, since these witnesses were to prophesy 1260 days, that is, so many years, but a succession of ministers and churches; and these are called two, both on account of the fewness of them, and because the testimony of two is sufficient to confirm any matter; and it may be in allusion to the various instances of two eminent persons being raised up at certain periods of time, as Moses and Aaron, at the deliverance of the children of Israel out of Egypt; Caleb and Joshua, at their entrance into Canaan; Elijah and Elisha in the idolatrous times of Ahab; and Joshua and Zerubbabel at the rebuilding and finishing of the second temple. Now the Angel, and who is Christ, here promises that he will give something to these witnesses: some supply the words, "I will give it"; that is, the holy city, or the church, to them, to be taken care of and defended; others, "I will give" them a mouth and wisdom, which their adversaries shall not be able to resist, according to the promise in #Lu 21:15. We supply the words, "I will give power"; that is, authority to preach the Gospel, and strength to profess it, and to continue to bear a testimony to it, signified by prophesying; see #1Co 14:1,3.

And they shall prophesy; that is, "that they may prophesy"; which is supported by the Arabic and Ethiopic versions, the former rendering the words, "I will give to my two witnesses to prophesy", and the latter, "I will give in command to my two witnesses that they may prophesy"; the sense is, that Christ will give to them a mission and commission, sufficient authority, all needful gifts and grace, courage and presence of mind to preach his Gospel, to hold forth his word, and bear a testimony for him during the whole time of the apostasy, even

a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days; that is, so many years, which, as before observed, is the date of the beast’s reign, of the holy city being trodden under foot of the Gentiles, and of the church’s retirement into the wilderness: it is observable, that the date of the beast’s reign and tyranny is expressed by months, and the date of the church’s being in the wilderness, and the prophesying of the witnesses, is signified by days; and the reason which some give is not despicable, as that the beast and his followers are the children of darkness and of the night, over which the moon presides, from whence months are, numbered; and the church and the witnesses are children of the day, over which the sun rules. The habit of these witnesses during their time of prophesying follows,

clothed in sackcloth; expressive either of their outward state and condition, being poor, mean, and abject, while the followers of the beast are clad in silks, and live deliciously; or else of the inward frame of their minds, as mourning for the sad estate of the church of Christ, groaning under the tyranny and persecutions of antichrist.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
That which is perfect was Jesus. The two prophets come after Jesus returns, at which time there will be a new dispensation and different rules will apply.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ April 23, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Very interesting. I can see taking that figuratively to a point, however, in the way you just put it I have a problem because it leads the door open to way too many options in understanding the meaning of Revelations. Take it too figuratively and who's not to say the prophecies have already come to pass? I realize I've been going off on Mormonism lately, but bear with me. The Mormons have a very strong habit of taking everything figuratively, and that includes Revelations, and the whole Bible, which they consider everything it contains to have already happened.
Now I realize that we aren't them, however, I'm trying to prove with that how leaving a little lee-way like that can be extremely dangerous.
The Bible does use a lot of alliteration, was written in a language that uses a lot of figurative speech, but some things just have to be taken literally.
Not to say I won't look further into what you have said.
I do so enjoy our world of endless possibilities!
(Yes, I can see those of you shaking your heads in dismay at that last statement )

 

Question? If the gifts given by the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor. 12 are no longer applicable--that is we no longer receive prophecy or a word of knowledge, wisdom, tongues, etc.--there is no healing--and as I read in another post the belief that the Holy Spirit only speaks through the Bible, then doesn't that make God either dead or extremely distant? Doesn't He still speak to us directly through the Holy Spirit each and every day? Isn't He still involved in every aspect and moment of our life? As I hear so often in our prayers----lead, guide and direct us----how does He do that if He doesn't speak to us and give us a word?

 

If all these gifts passed away with the Apostles as someone said in 70 AD (I would like a scripture verse on that one!!!!!)
And if this happened because it died with the Apostles then that must mean that only the apostles had these gifts. I read
that 120 people were in the upperroom and tongues of fire fell upon each of them
and they spake with tonques. Were these 120 Apostles?
Were Corneleus and his household Apostles?
Were the Ephesians in Acts 19 Apostles?
Were the Corinthians that Paul addressed concerning the Operations of the Gifts of the Spirit All Apostles?

Study history and you will also find out that People spoke with tongues between 70AD and 1906. Ever heard of Tertullian? The Montanist( though the Catholic Church called them heretics, but some catholics would say Baptist are heretics. It was also the Montanist that preached that infant Baptism was not the answer to our redemption but rather believers baptism. Sound familiar?)

Ever heard of the Waldenes of France?

Ever heard of the Cane Ridge Revival of 1801
Speaking in tongues occured there. Read a book by Paul Conkin entitled Cane Ridge, America's Pentecost. ( out of print but can be found over the internet)
After the Cane Ridge revival the number of Baptist in The state of kentucky doubled in one year.

Ever read about the |Scottish Presbryterians of Ulster Scottland.

Ever read Acts 2:39

 

atestring, Tongues passed away in 70AD because that is when Isreal was destoyed and the jews scattered. Tongues were a warning sign to them as Paul says in 1 Cor. 14 when he references Isaiah (read the chapter in Is.) Intreptation ended then as well. I believe Knowledge wisdom and Prophecy are still in operation. Miracles and healing also passed away in the first century, as Spiritual gifts. That fact is obvious to anyway who spends anytime looking at the operation of those 2 gifts. Hope this helps.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
As to prophecy, if the prophecies agree with the Bible they're needless. If they don't agree with the Bible they're false.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Acts 21 relates how prophets revealed to Paul how he would be imprisoned. This had nothing to do with doctrines of scripture. It was a personal message from God to Paul during the church age. We don't need this today?
Why did God think Paul needed it?

hugo

 

1Cor. 12 I believe tells us that tounges, prophesy and words of knowledge are still very much in use for today. Paul was giving instruction all thru Cor. in how to use this gift of tounges and no it is not the most important gift to be used but it is a valid one for today. The bible also says in Cor. that we are not to forbid the speaking of tounges but that is to be done in the proper manner. I do not believe in any way shape or form that these gifts have ceased but are still very helpful and active today.

dar