God’s Sovereign Choice to Involve Man’s Will

[Reformer]

HP: The truth is that if in fact Luther’s book is the truth, depravity is nothing more than the handiwork of God Himself. Again, what a horrible blight upon the Character of our Holy, Fair and Just God.

You should read
the whole book

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

What an absolute mockery of God’s character, to suggest that God is responsible for our choices, when our choices according to many are sinful everyday in thought word and deed. We are told that all are liars, making God out to be the father of lies. What in the name of sanity have we swallowed in the name of theology??? God help us!

 

[Reformer]

What an absolute mockery of God’s character, to suggest that God is responsible for our choices, when our choices according to many are sinful everyday in thought word and deed. We are told that all are liars, making God out to be the father of lies. What in the name of sanity have we swallowed in the name of theology??? God help us!

I don't know of any person that has ever said that God was responsible for our sinful choices. Please quit putting words in peoples mouths

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Reformer: I don't know of any person that has ever said that God was responsible for our sinful choices. Please quit putting words in peoples mouth

HP: Possibly you might tell us then who is responsible for sin. If not God, who? If I am created by God to sin and that continually, the fate of every sinner not redeemed we are told, and even the fate of believers if you listen to those on this list, coupled with the notion that God is in control of our choices, man being without a free will and in bondage as Luther proclaims, how can God not be responsible for our sin? Are you suggesting, contrary to Luther’s theology, that man is able to thwart the predestined plan of God of those predestined to damnation?? Are you suggesting that man is able, yea, 'REQUIRED' by God upon pain of eternal torment, to do that which even God Himself cannot do, i.e., act in direct opposition to necessitated fate?

If one does not like the logical ends Calvinism genders, I would suggest changing ones theology to something more palatable to truth and sanity.

 

[Reformer]

HP: Possibly you might tell us then who is responsible for sin. If not God, who? If I am created by God to sin and that continually, the fate of every sinner not redeemed we are told, and even the fate of believers if you listen to those on this list, coupled with the notion that God is in control of our choices, man being without a free will and in bondage as Luther proclaims, how can God not be responsible for our sin? Are you suggesting, contrary to Luther’s theology, that man is able to thwart the predestined plan of God of those predestined to damnation?? Are you suggesting that man is able, yea, 'REQUIRED' by God upon pain of eternal torment, to do that which even God Himself cannot do, i.e., act in direct opposition to necessitated fate?

If one does not like the logical ends Calvinism genders, I would suggest changing ones theology to something more palatable to truth and sanity.

I am responsible for my sin, you are responsible for yours, my wife is responsible for hers ECT...ECT...

The Will is in bondage to SIN, that sin and that desire came from within us.... James 1: 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by HIS OWN DESIRES and enticed.

The will comes from us, therefore, the responsibility is ours. But we are bonded to the desire to sin, If you don't believe that tell me why you don't just completely stop sinning? Paul understood this well

Romans 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Frankly I think you should study your own Theology. The main debate over the will is whether or not it can desire God in respect to salvation.

This conversation is OVER for me GOODBYE!!!!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Reformer: This conversation is OVER for me GOODBYE!!!!

HP: Sad but often true, yet another leaves knee deep in the maelstrom of confusion Calvinism breeds.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre: I am not sure I understand your question. I certainly do not believe that doing good works atone for sin. The work of Jesus on the cross fully atones for sin. But it is nevertheless true that at the final judgement, eternal life will be granted on the basis of the evidence of an entire life - that is, on the basis of the good works that are manifested in one's life. Paul is clear about that in Romans 2.

I do not see any contradiction in the above position. Do you?

HP: Salvation will not be accomplished for the sake of any works we can do, nor is works that we do thought of in any way as meritorious. With that in mind, I agree that salvation encompasses righteous behavior, without which no man shall see the Lord. If you are in agreement with the senses in which works are involved in salvation and the sense in which they are not, I believe I would agree that there in no contradiction in what you are saying. Salvation encompasses not only our entering in by faith, but our walk with the Lord as well, which indeed will be judged as to its real worth. If ones works are not righteous, no hope of eternal life can be consistently held.
Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Hayley]

Oh dear...

 

[Andre]

The will comes from us, therefore, the responsibility is ours.

I do not see the logic here, but I have not read the entire thread so perhaps you have explained further. And if you are indeed bowing out of this discussion, perhaps someone else will address my comments.

If it is the case that I am indeed born with a truly irresistable urge to sin - I simply do not have the power to "not sin" - then it simply untrue to the relevant concepts to assert that I am "responsible" or "accountable". The notion of the power of contrary choice is implicitly bundled into the very meaning of such terms.

So while it could be true that we are born with such an irresistable urge, and while that could guarantee our death ("the wages of sin is death"), it cannot be the case that we are "responsible" or "accountable" for such actions.

Interestingly enough, I do believe that we are born with an irresistable urge to sin (I suspect HP, who probably has agreed with me so far, will disagree with me on this), and I do believe that it will lead to death. But I think that our demise is not a "punishment" related to moral accountability, but rather "simply the ways things are in a fallen world".

Analogy: A child born with HIV has committed no sexual sin himself (not that all cases of HIV involve sexual sin, but assume that they do for the sake of the argument). Will that child die as a result of the sin of one of the parents? Sadly, the child will indeed die. But does this necessitate that the child is morally accountable? No.

 

[Andre]

HP: Salvation will not be accomplished for the sake of any works we can do, nor is works that we do thought of in any way as meritorious. With that in mind, I agree that salvation encompasses righteous behavior, without which no man shall see the Lord. If you are in agreement with the senses in which works are involved in salvation and the sense in which they are not, I believe I would agree that there in no contradiction in what you are saying. Salvation encompasses not only our entering in by faith, but our walk with the Lord as well, which indeed will be judged as to its real worth. If ones works are not righteous, no hope of eternal life can be consistently held.

I agree with you.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre: Analogy: A child born with HIV has committed no sexual sin himself (not that all cases of HIV involve sexual sin, but assume that they do for the sake of the argument). Will that child die as a result of the sin of one of the parents? Sadly, the child will indeed die. But does this necessitate that the child is morally accountable? No.

HP: You cannot use an analogy that is purely physical as in comparison to that which is spiritual, moral, and eternal. In Adam, all die, i.e., all are born into a finite world of a specific numbers of days or years until they will see physical death. You are right in that such a death sentence does not necessitate moral accountability. One has to reach the age of accountability in order to become morally accountable. When you say that man is born with an “irresistible urge to sin” you are in effect saying that it is impossible for one born into this world that reaches the age of accountability to do anything other than sin. If that is the case they are programmed by sheer necessity to sin. The age of accountability becomes a chimera, for if sin is necessitated, nothing else could be required for them to do but sin. If that is true, there is absolutely no grounds for accountability at all. Freedom of the will is destroyed, for the will, under the scenario you paint, has no ability to do anything other than it does. Accountability and choice only exist when one is able to do something other than what one does under the same set of circumstances.

 

[Andre]

HP: You cannot use an analogy that is purely physical as in comparison to that which is spiritual, moral, and eternal. In Adam, all die, i.e., all are born into a finite world of a specific numbers of days or years until they will see physical death. You are right in that such a death sentence does not necessitate moral accountability. One has to reach the age of accountability in order to become morally accountable. When you say that man is born with an “irresistible urge to sin” you are in effect saying that it is impossible for one born into this world that reaches the age of accountability to do anything other than sin. If that is the case they are programmed by sheer necessity to sin. The age of accountability becomes a chimera, for if sin is necessitated, nothing else could be required for them to do but sin. If that is true, there is absolutely no grounds for accountability at all. Freedom of the will is destroyed, for the will, under the scenario you paint, has no ability to do anything other than it does. Accountability and choice only exist when one is able to do something other than what one does under the same set of circumstances.

In the past, I have been unable to make you understand where I am coming from. And obviously the problem persists.

You seem to be unable to shake free from the idea that our death is a "punishment" - that moral accountability is the issue. Hence you reject my analogy. But you need to make an actual case, not merely assert your position.

I agree with you about the nonsensical nature of the idea that we are judicially sentenced to death for acts we are "programmed" to perform. We agree on this.

Now, I still see us as being "programmed to sin", I just do not accept that the death we die as a result is one of "punishment" or judicial accountability.

Let's say a man is born with a genetic defect that guarantees he will drink poison and die - for some mysterious reason, he cannot resist the desire to drink poison. When the man sadly dies, say at age 20, from drinking poison, no one would say "its his fault" or "he got what he deserves".

The correct conclusion is that he is a victim of the genetic inclination to drink poison. Same thing with human sin.

Let me be clear: there is absolutely no incoherence with the notion that we are "programmed to sin" and that our death results from such sin. The only way it becomes incoherent is if one insists that the death is a matter of punishment.

My position here is entirely self-consistent. The way to attack my view is to make a Biblical case that our death is indeed really punishment, really a case where we are being held accountable for our sins.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre: In the past, I have been unable to make you understand where I am coming from. And obviously the problem persists.

You seem to be unable to shake free from the idea that our death is a "punishment" - that moral accountability is the issue.

HP: I do not believe for a minute that physical death is a punishment for sin.

Andre: Hence you reject my analogy. But you need to make an actual case, not merely assert your position.

I agree with you about the nonsensical nature of the idea that we are judicially sentenced to death for acts we are "programmed" to perform. We agree on this.

Now, I still see us as being "programmed to sin", I just do not accept that the death we die as a result is one of "punishment" or judicial accountability.

HP:I fully agree that physical death is not punishement for sin. It is an appointment we all will face, not because we are sinners or not, but rather because we are the physical offspring of a mortal named Adam. In spite of our agreement on that issue, you still destroy any and all accountability when you say that we are ‘programmed to sin.’ If sin is necessitated in any way, man cannot be held accountable for that which he could not avoid.

Andre: Let's say a man is born with a genetic defect that guarantees he will drink poison and die - for some mysterious reason, he cannot resist the desire to drink poison. When the man sadly dies, say at age 20, from drinking poison, no one would say "its his fault" or "he got what he deserves".

HP: Again I agree.

Andre: The correct conclusion is that he is a victim of the genetic inclination to drink poison. Same thing with human sin.

HP: That is where you are wrtong. Sin is not the product of a genetic link or the necessitated results of being human. Sin is a voluntary intent formed by the will in direct opposition to a known commandment of God. Nothing necessitated is moral. Morality, sin, and or righteousness, are all the results of the formed intents of the will and cannot be the necessitated results of ones nature or anything outside of the will itself. It is the will, the chooser of man, that initiates sin. Sin would not be sin if in fact it was unavoidable.

Andre: Let me be clear: there is absolutely no incoherence with the notion that we are "programmed to sin" and that our death results from such sin. The only way it becomes incoherent is if one insists that the death is a matter of punishment.

HP: I disagree. Sin cannot be programmed, for if it was programmed, it would not be sin. In order to anything praiseworthy or blameworthy, man must have a choice. Sin, if the product of programming, would be something of necessity which is at direct antipodes with the nature of sin. Sin at its heart is purely voluntary, not coerced or programmed. Morality denotes choice, and there is no choice if one is programmed with only one possible consequent for an antecedent.

 

[Andre]

In spite of our agreement on that issue, you still destroy any and all accountability when you say that we are ‘programmed to sin.’ If sin is necessitated in any way, man cannot be held accountable for that which he could not avoid.

Guilty. I indeed do destroy accountability.

Sin is not the product of a genetic link or the necessitated results of being human. Sin is a voluntary intent formed by the will in direct opposition to a known commandment of God.

I disagree. I think that the scriptures indeed teach that we are born with an irresistable inclination to sin.

Well, I think is fair to say that our respective positions are internally self-consistent. We simply disagree on whether we are "programmed to sin". I think that the Bible teaches that we are. You, presumably think otherwise.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre: I disagree. I think that the scriptures indeed teach that we are born with an irresistable inclination to sin.

HP: You agree that you destroy accountability. Do you believe God holds man accountable for his sins? Upon what basis is man accountable for sin? Is sin blameworthy? If so, why is it if in fact it is unavoidable?