God’s Sovereignty and First Causes

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

God’s Sovereignty and First Causes

It has been asked several times on this list whether or not a Sovereign God could create a world in which His creation could be granted the abilities and powers requisite of freedom of choice, i.e., the power to actually form the intents of the heart, and as such be the first cause of them. Silence to my knowledge has been the only response.

It appears that those that raise the issue of God’s Sovereignty at every turn when it might prove advantageous to their arguments, seem to limit God when it comes to being sovereign and making sovereign choices. Why do those crying “Sovereign” the loudest limit God in this regard? Could God not make a being in His own image if in fact He so desired, granting to man the power to be the first cause of his intents just as God is the first cause of His?

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

It has been asked several times on this list whether or not a Sovereign God could create a world in which His creation could be granted the abilities and powers requisite of freedom of choice, i.e., the power to actually form the intents of the heart, and as such be the first cause of them. Silence to my knowledge has been the only response.

It appears that those that raise the issue of God’s Sovereignty at every turn when it might prove advantageous to their arguments, seem to limit God when it comes to being sovereign and making sovereign choices. Why do those crying “Sovereign” the loudest limit God in this regard? Could God not make a being in His own image if in fact He so desired, granting to man the power to be the first cause of his intents just as God is the first cause of His?

Well God did grant us the ability to make choices. Volitional capacity is central to the creation of humanity and its relationship to the Angelic fall, the reason humanity was created in the first place, as a response to that fall.

But more to your question. There is nothing contrary to the concept of God's Sovereignty if one believers man can be the first cause of his intents and subsequent actions. To some of course, those that think their finite brain can comprehend in every facet the infinite nature of Divine Sovereignty, it is not compatible. Unfortunately they are relying on human rationale and then with this grid approach the Scriptures and manipulate them with their theological grid so that texts are enlarged or shaved to fit the grid of their human reasoning.+

However the Bible does not provide any such claim of incompatibility or contradiction regarding the existence of human volition which possesses first intent and Divine Sovereignty.

Most glaringly would be our evil choices. Those are ours and certainly God cannot be the source of first intent. That most elementary reality should steer Theologians of all levels away from such notions.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AQ: Most glaringly would be our evil choices. Those are ours and certainly God cannot be the source of first intent. That most elementary reality should steer Theologians of all levels away from such notions.

HP: I appreciate your response. :thumbs: It would appear to me that any reasonable mind can either see that we have but two alternatives. Either God is the First Cause of everything, including sin, or a Sovereign God has created others with the capacity and ability to be first causes of their intents, and as such responsible for their own evil.

It is utter absurdity to consider that a Holy God can be the first cause of all evil, for if that was true he might be half one thing and half evil but he could not be said to be Holy.

If there is any way that one can make God Sovereign and the First Cause of all intents and yet isolate Him from the necessitated thought of being the first cause of all evil as well, I am listening. I see it as a logical impossibility.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

HP: I appreciate your response. :thumbs: It would appear to me that any reasonable mind can either see that we have but two alternatives. Either God is the First Cause of everything, including sin, or a Sovereign God has created others with the capacity and ability to be first causes of their intents, and as such responsible for their own evil.

It is utter absurdity to consider that a Holy God can be the first cause of all evil, for if that was true he might be half one thing and half evil but he could not be said to be Holy.

If there is any way that one can make God Sovereign and the First Cause of all intents and yet isolate Him from the necessitated thought of being the first cause of all evil as well, I am listening. I see it as a logical impossibility.

My question to anyone is why does the definition of "Divine Sovereignty" require God being the author of all first intents? I honestly see nothing in Scripture requiring such a view in order to hold to a Biblical understanding of Divine Sovereignty.

 

[skypair]

... To some of course, those that think their finite brain can comprehend in every facet the infinite nature of Divine Sovereignty, it is not compatible. Unfortunately they are relying on human rationale and then with this grid approach the Scriptures and manipulate them with their theological grid so that texts are enlarged or shaved to fit the grid of their human reasoning.+.

In this regard, I read a quote recently regarding "systematic theologies" saying that they are "logical or philosophical" molds into which some "pour in Scriptures" which, though they make sense, come out in the shape of the mold they were poured into. I think that certainly can be said of many of the theologies we read about today -- people trying to understand scripture by reliance on their own minds.

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

God’s Sovereignty and First Causes

It has been asked several times on this list whether or not a Sovereign God could create a world in which His creation could be granted the abilities and powers requisite of freedom of choice, i.e., the power to actually form the intents of the heart, and as such be the first cause of them. Silence to my knowledge has been the only response.

He "could" and "He did" - Adam and Eve chose rebellion

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: He "could" and "He did" - Adam and Eve chose rebellion

HP: That is a refreshing break upon the general silence that has fell upon my question.:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Skypair: people trying to understand scripture by reliance on their own minds.

HP: Are you suggesting that you understand Scripture apart from your mind? That is an interesting thought indeed. How do you do that?

Certainly the Holy Spirit aides our understanding, but He speaks to us through our intellect, our ability to perceive, think and understand. I would consider those things our mind, wouldn’t you? Even from birth, God instills within man a mind and places within it certain intuitive truths to guide us in any and every pursuit of truth. If you are approaching Scripture without careful consultation with the revelation of truth God grants to all moral agents via their conscience by the means of first truths of reason, you are bound to end up in great error.